02 - Bang Bang

[Hermione]

17 minutes ago, Hero_Of_The_Hour said:

 

How can you take it seriously?  Maybe because it's true. Elliot Rodgers was a real person who horrifically murdered six people because he was still a virgin. He had psychological problems. There is nothing mocking in Billie's lyrics. He was in his own words "freaked out" by the whole situation. It's not something that people should not take seriously. Mental health problems are by their very nature serious and not something that should be mocked nor is the murder of six young people. Come on.

Not taking it seriously as in seeing what an irrational motive it is isn't the same as not taking the fact that it happened seriously. Mocking or making use of satire about the irrationality of the motives or the media side of things isn't mocking "the murder of six young people". No one is suggesting he's trivializing the issue, it's biting social commentary on the factors that come together to make these terrible things happen.

I guess lines like "give me death or give me head" or "hurrah! hurrah! the hero of the hour" aren't meant sarcastically and aren't satire on how the media makes murderers famous (or how they might believe it will)?

[DeJennsitized]

3 minutes ago, Hero_Of_The_Hour said:

 

How can you take it seriously?  Maybe because it's true. Elliot Rodgers was a real person who horrifically murdered six people because he was still a virgin. He had psychological problems. There is nothing mocking in Billie's lyrics. He was in his own words "freaked out" by the whole situation. It's not something that people should not take seriously. Mental health problems are by their very nature serious and not something that should be mocked nor is the murder of six young people. Come on.

I have a feeling you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying being a virgin is not a real reason to become a mass shooter. There isn't any justifiable reason to murder in that way! 'My own private drama', 'Hero of the hour' are phrases Billie uses from the shooter POV. These are satirical. The circumstances are very real and very serious, I'm not saying they aren't, but it would be a bit pretentious to make a song that genuinely tries to "understand" a shooter's motives. Billie knows no more than you or I what goes on inside someone's head when they decide to shoot someone. 

[Second favourite son]

8 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

I have a feeling you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying being a virgin is not a real reason to become a mass shooter. There isn't any justifiable reason to murder in that way! 'My own private drama', 'Hero of the hour' are phrases Billie uses from the shooter POV. These are satirical. The circumstances are very real and very serious, I'm not saying they aren't, but it would be a bit pretentious to make a song that genuinely tries to "understand" a shooter's motives. Billie knows no more than you or I what goes on inside someone's head when they decide to shoot someone. 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here.  Being a virgin was a real reason for someone to become a mass shooter - Elliot Rodger.  That's not saying it's a justifiable reason, or that there weren't a multitude of underlying mental health problems.  Billie can know this was his main reason because Rodger documented it extensively himself.  He made a YouTube video the day before explaining exactly what he was going to do and why he was going to do it; a truly disturbing watch.  While Billie may not be able to undergo the exact same thought processes, he is aware of the basic ideas that fuelled Rodger's mass murder - the song doesn't actually touch on anything deeper than that.

[Hero_Of_The_Hour]

24 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

I have a feeling you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying being a virgin is not a real reason to become a mass shooter. There isn't any justifiable reason to murder in that way! 'My own private drama', 'Hero of the hour' are phrases Billie uses from the shooter POV. These are satirical. The circumstances are very real and very serious, I'm not saying they aren't, but it would be a bit pretentious to make a song that genuinely tries to "understand" a shooter's motives. Billie knows no more than you or I what goes on inside someone's head when they decide to shoot someone. 

 

25 minutes ago, Hermione said:

Not taking it seriously as in seeing what an irrational motive it is isn't the same as not taking the fact that it happened seriously. Mocking or making use of satire about the irrationality of the motives or the media side of things isn't mocking "the murder of six young people". No one is suggesting he's trivializing the issue, it's biting social commentary on the factors that come together to make these terrible things happen.

I guess lines like "give me death or give me head" or "hurrah! hurrah! the hero of the hour" aren't meant sarcastically and aren't satire on how the media makes murderers famous (or how they might believe it will)?

You both seem to seriously miss the point. "Normal" people without serious psychological problems don't generally commit mass murder and they don't react to repeated rejection and the desire to belong by killing six people. The key words in that sentence however were "serious psychological problems".  You can't call the motives of somebody with multiple physiological problems "irrational" or argue that they "can't be justified"  and therefore it's not a "real reason to become a shooter". Rodgers had multiple psychological disorders. Rational people don't murder because they can't have sex. It's not about justifying or "understanding" his reasoning. Rodgers had a thought process. It wasn't rational but it led to many deaths because it wasn't stopped in time despite his parents calling police. Billie said he didn't want to offend anyone's family by writing about him. I don't see why he'd be dumb enough to make even the slightest hint at humour or mockery given the circumstances (and his own quotes). Not only would it offend the families of the dead but it would offend Rodgers family who struggled their whole lives to help him up to weeks beforehand. 

[DeJennsitized]

21 minutes ago, Second favourite son said:

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here.  Being a virgin was a real reason for someone to become a mass shooter - Elliot Rodger.  That's not saying it's a justifiable reason, or that there weren't a multitude of underlying mental health problems.  Billie can know this was his main reason because Rodger documented it extensively himself.  He made a YouTube video the day before explaining exactly what he was going to do and why he was going to do it; a truly disturbing watch.  While Billie may not be able to undergo the exact same thought processes, he is aware of the basic ideas that fuelled Rodger's mass murder - the song doesn't actually touch on anything deeper than that.

I don't think the song is that specific though. That particular incident may have inspired the song but I stand by what I said, that i think it's satirical because you can't begin to get behind a motive like that unless you take a certain angle.

Rodger might have thought it a real reason but from anyone else's POV it's obviously not. The lyrics aren't trying to understand that reason. 

9 minutes ago, Hero_Of_The_Hour said:

 

You both seem to seriously miss the point. "Normal" people without serious psychological problems don't generally commit mass murder and they don't react to repeated rejection and the desire to belong by killing six people. The key words in that sentence however were "serious psychological problems".  You can't call the motives of somebody with multiple physiological problems "irrational" or argue that they "can't be justified"  and therefore it's not a "real reason to become a shooter". Rodgers had multiple psychological disorders. Rational people don't murder because they can't have sex. It's not about justifying or "understanding" his reasoning. Rodgers had a thought process. It wasn't rational but it led to many deaths because it wasn't stopped in time despite his parents calling police. Billie said he didn't want to offend anyone's family by writing about him. I don't see why he'd be dumb enough to make even the slightest hint at humour or mockery given the circumstances (and his own quotes). Not only would it offend the families of the dead but it would offend Rodgers family who struggled their whole lives to help him up to weeks beforehand. 

Not all shooters have psychological problems (just a gun and a bad temper in some cases), but I digress. 

Edit: in any case I think we are pretty much missing each other's point at this stage so maybe it's best we leave it.

[Chin for a Day]

10 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

I don't think the song is that specific though. That particular incident may have inspired the song but I stand by what I said, that i think it's satirical because you can't begin to get behind a motive like that unless you take a certain angle.

Rodger might have thought it a real reason but from anyone else's POV it's obviously not. The lyrics aren't trying to understand that reason. 

 

I suggest you read these articles

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-shooting-media-20160618-snap-story.html 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/health/psychology-mass-shootings/

[Hero_Of_The_Hour]

15 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

I don't think the song is that specific though. That particular incident may have inspired the song but I stand by what I said, that i think it's satirical because you can't begin to get behind a motive like that unless you take a certain angle.

Rodger might have thought it a real reason but from anyone else's POV it's obviously not. The lyrics aren't trying to understand that reason. 

Not all shooters have psychological problems (just a gun and a bad temper in some cases), but I digress. 

Edit: in any case I think we are pretty much missing each other's point at this stage so maybe it's best we leave it.

We aren't talking about "all shooters"... Billie wrote this song about Rodgers and specifically said so. Rodgers did have multiple psychological disorders. Anyone else's POV doesn't matter because Rodgers was the one who did the killings and documented his motivations leaving no doubt as to what they were and nobody is expected to "get behind a motive like that" but you can't dismiss it either because that IS what motivated these killings. Fact.  I honestly agree that this is pointless because you could just read what Billie has said. 

[DeJennsitized]

4 minutes ago, Hero_Of_The_Hour said:

We aren't talking about "all shooters"... Billie wrote this song about Rodgers and specifically said so. Rodgers did have multiple psychological disorders. Anyone else's POV doesn't matter because Rodgers was the one who did the killings and documented his motivations leaving no doubt as to what they were and nobody is expected to "get behind a motive like that" but you can't dismiss it either because that IS what motivated these killings. Fact.  I honestly agree that this is pointless because you could just read what Billie has said. 

This is kinda going way off my original point which is that i think the lyrics are satirical. The lyrics aren't direct quotes from Rodgers, nor are they an attempt to get people to understand his motive. Billie Joe didn't literally assume the POV of the shooter, it's vague enough to not be about a specific shooter regardless of the inspiration behind the song so it takes the form of a character, like St Jimmy or the POVs in Brat and those other songs I mentioned. 

The background of the song doesn't matter when people are listening at face value on the radio. People get different things from songs and it's not a bad thing. Satire isn't a bad thing. It's a form of distancing yourself somewhat from the disturbing subject matter. Yes, I know what Billie Joe said. What I said doesn't undermine that. I'm not 'dismissing' the motive itself, or anything for that matter. When I said it wasn't real, I meant in the context of the song. 

 

[Chin for a Day]

16 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

This is kinda going way off my original point which is that i think the lyrics are satirical. The lyrics aren't direct quotes from Rodgers, nor are they an attempt to get people to understand his motive. Billie Joe didn't literally assume the POV of the shooter, it's vague enough to not be about a specific shooter regardless of the inspiration behind the song so it takes the form of a character, like St Jimmy or the POVs in Brat and those other songs I mentioned. 

The background of the song doesn't matter when people are listening at face value on the radio. People get different things from songs and it's not a bad thing. Satire isn't a bad thing. It's a form of distancing yourself somewhat from the disturbing subject matter. Yes, I know what Billie Joe said. What I said doesn't undermine that. I'm not 'dismissing' the motive itself, or anything for that matter. When I said it wasn't real, I meant in the context of the song. 

 

Do you actually understand the definition of satire?

"the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues."

Not being real quotes or not literally assuming the role of the shooter does not make it satire.  The lyrics are not mocking the shooter at all, but trying to give his poitn of view

 

[Second favourite son]

Yes.  He may not be entirely literal in his portrayal of the shooter's point of view, but he isn't satirical - he's serious.

[DeJennsitized]

4 minutes ago, JJ1964 said:

Do you actually understand the definition of satire?

"the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues."

Not being real quotes or not literally assuming the role of the shooter does not make it satire.  The lyrics are not mocking the shooter at all, but trying to give his poitn of view

 

Yes, that definition is pretty much exactly what I'm thinking. We KNOW the shooter's POV, as has been pointed out. Bang Bang is Billie Joe's satirical take on it (IMO.)

2 minutes ago, Second favourite son said:

Yes.  He may not be entirely literal in his portrayal of the shooter's point of view, but he isn't satirical - he's serious.

Satire doesn't mean it's not serious. It's just a different way of getting the point across.

[Joe K]

I know it's ok to talk about the song, but isn't it a bit ridicilous to fight about such small details of the lyrics?

[Chin for a Day]

16 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

Yes, that definition is pretty much exactly what I'm thinking. We KNOW the shooter's POV, as has been pointed out. Bang Bang is Billie Joe's satirical take on it (IMO.)

Satire doesn't mean it's not serious. It's just a different way of getting the point across.

But you have repeatedly said that we can't know the shooters point of view.  Now you are contradicting yourself.  Billie has repeatedly said that it was written from the shooters point of view.  Teh shooter would never mock himself, thus not satirical.  I think you need to re-read the definition.  

[Second favourite son]

3 minutes ago, Joe K said:

I know it's ok to talk about the song, but isn't it a bit ridicilous to fight about such small details of the lyrics?

I don't think there's any fighting going on, just a debate between people with different opinions. Everyone's been respectful to each other so far and I'm sure that will continue.  We're simply discussing Bang Bang, which is, after all, the purpose of this thread.  If everyone agreed on everything life would be boring.

 

21 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

Satire doesn't mean it's not serious. It's just a different way of getting the point across.

I agree that the piece could be satirical yet serious; it's not something that's normally done because it's very hard to be both at the same time.  I just don't think he is satirical in this case.  Yes, he's using imagery and exaggeration, but I don't think he's doing it enough to call it satire.  Satire is usually more ridiculous, often in a reductio ad absurdum way, and mocking.  I'd say what Billie has used here is simply artistic licence. To say the piece is satirical is to say he is mocking the shooter and pointing out how ridiculous his point of view is as the main theme.  It certainly does that, but it's secondary to the 'shock factor' of "omg this guy's actually thinking like this, this is how the media fuels mass shooters etc." Kind of way.  That, for me, is why it's not satire.

[Siddharth_471]

At first listen, my thoughts were that it's a satirical takeover on the topic but after knowing about it's background and their articles I must say it is not at all satirical or any kind of humorous mocking but a direct commentary on shootings and role played by media in it. In the interview they stated that they didn't want to make any direct reference of the shooter to not harm the family's sentiments and even if song is from his point of view there can be mocking but there isn't at all any of it. The song is from the shooter as first person and the chorus part is actually criticizing the media but you find me any lyric from it and I can say it's not satire.

[DeJennsitized]

9 minutes ago, JJ1964 said:

But you have repeatedly said that we can't know the shooters point of view.  Now you are contradicting yourself.  Billie has repeatedly said that it was written from the shooters point of view.  Teh shooter would never mock himself, thus not satirical.  I think you need to re-read the definition.  

We can't understand the POV is what I was trying to say. We know the surface reason. Just because it's written from that POV doesn't mean it's attempting to understand it or speak literally from the shooter's mouth. The shooter wouldn't call himself daddy's little psycho. That's a satirical line. Maybe you need to re-read the lyrics.

[Siddharth_471]

3 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

The shooter wouldn't call himself daddy's little psycho. That's a satirical line. Maybe you need to re-read the lyrics.

Well, the song is definitely from shooters view point, but many parts are there which are not him as the first person, like the one you said above and the chorus part and that specific lyric is about his personal condition before the incident which can be called personal.

[DeJennsitized]

4 minutes ago, Second favourite son said:

I don't think there's any fighting going on, just a debate between people with different opinions. Everyone's been respectful to each other so far and I'm sure that will continue.  We're simply discussing Bang Bang, which is, after all, the purpose of this thread.  If everyone agreed on everything life would be boring.

 

I agree that the piece could be satirical yet serious; it's not something that's normally done because it's very hard to be both at the same time.  I just don't think he is satirical in this case.  Yes, he's using imagery and exaggeration, but I don't think he's doing it enough to call it satire.  Satire is usually more ridiculous, often in a reductio ad absurdum way, and mocking.  I'd say what Billie has used here is simply artistic licence. To say the piece is satirical is to say he is mocking the shooter and pointing out how ridiculous his point of view is as the main theme.  It certainly does that, but it's secondary to the 'shock factor' of "omg this guy's actually thinking like this, this is how the media fuels mass shooters etc." Kind of way.  That, for me, is why it's not satire.

That's totally fair enough. On the surface the lyrics actually are ridiculous enough to be satire. It's just the subject (and the fact that it's told from POV) that is sort of muddying the waters a bit. But I still think it's enough to still be satiric, particularly with some of the lines.

2 minutes ago, Siddharth_471 said:

Well, the song is definitely from shooters view point, but many parts are there which are not him as the first person, like the one you said above and the chorus part and that specific lyric is about his personal condition before the incident which can be called personal.

I think it's all from first person. That line is just more satirical than the others. It makes more sense for me to read it all as first person instead of the random switching of POV for one lyric. 

[Second favourite son]

10 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

The shooter wouldn't call himself daddy's little psycho. That's a satirical line. Maybe you need to re-read the lyrics.

I see what you mean by it containing satire now.  I'd still argue that that line isn't truly satirical, but it could definitely be interpreted as being on the satirical side of things.  The problem is it's so hard to define with such an extreme topic, that in itself makes even things close to the line seem very much more serious than satirical. 

[DeJennsitized]

12 minutes ago, Second favourite son said:

I see what you mean by it containing satire now.  I'd still argue that that line isn't truly satirical, but it could definitely be interpreted as being on the satirical side of things.  The problem is it's so hard to define with such an extreme topic, that in itself makes even things close to the line seem very much more serious than satirical. 

Yep, and the great thing about interpretations is that people can have different kinds.  

[Chin for a Day]

24 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

We can't understand the POV is what I was trying to say. We know the surface reason. Just because it's written from that POV doesn't mean it's attempting to understand it or speak literally from the shooter's mouth. The shooter wouldn't call himself daddy's little psycho. That's a satirical line. Maybe you need to re-read the lyrics.

I have re-read the lyrics many times.  I will agree that that line is not first person, but again, it doesn't mean it is satirical.   I do believe saying it is satirical minimizes the effect of the song.  I understand what you are trying to say, but I think you are confusing satire with rhetoric.  

[DeJennsitized]

20 minutes ago, JJ1964 said:

I have re-read the lyrics many times.  I will agree that that line is not first person, but again, it doesn't mean it is satirical.   I do believe saying it is satirical minimizes the effect of the song.  I understand what you are trying to say, but I think you are confusing satire with rhetoric.  

I don't think that line isn't first person though. I think the whole song is first person. That lyric ("Daddy's little psycho, mommy's little soldier") is arguably the punchline of the song and, I think, the most obviously satirical. 

Isn't satire a form of rhetoric?

[Hermione]

1 hour ago, JJ1964 said:

Do you actually understand the definition of satire?

"the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues."

Not being real quotes or not literally assuming the role of the shooter does not make it satire.  The lyrics are not mocking the shooter at all, but trying to give his poitn of view

 

Who said it's mocking the shooter? I think it's satire about the entire situation, particularly the media's role in the issue. It is giving the shooter's point of view but there's more to the lyrics than just that, the sarcastic turns of phrase and references to the media add other meanings and make it satirical social commentary rather than just a description. It comes across much more as a comment on the media than an in depth psychological exploration to me (even if that's done through psychological exploration).

@Hero_Of_The_Hour Just because Billie put himself in the mind of the shooter while writing the song, and said the Rodgers case was an influence, that doesn't mean the only possible interpretation is that it's just a straight description of what Rodgers did. Billie didn't say those were the only things that went into the song, and listening to the lyrics it sounds like there's more to it. And the song doesn't present psychological problems as the only reason for murder, it presents a range of reasons that could contribute to it. 

Satire on how the media makes murderers famous or what a messed up phenomenon mass shootings are isn't mockery of the crimes themselves or the victims. How is "give me death or give me head" or "hurrah! hurrah! the hero of the hour" or "daddy's little soldier" or "I get my kicks and I wanna start a rager" anything but dark sarcasm?

[Chin for a Day]

9 minutes ago, Hermione said:

Who said it's mocking the shooter? I think it's satire about the entire situation, particularly the media's role in the issue. It is giving the shooter's point of view but there's more to the lyrics than just that, the sarcastic turns of phrase and references to the media add other meanings and make it satirical social commentary rather than just a description. It comes across much more as a comment on the media than an in depth psychological exploration to me (even if that's done through psychological exploration).

 

Jenn123 was at least giving the impression that it was mocking the shooter, at least that is the way I took her posts, thus my issue with them.  However, I do see your point how it could be interpreted as a satirical comment on how the media views mass shooters.  And if I didn't read some of Billies interviews, I might have thought the same way.  I still don't think it is satirical.  I think it is supposed to take a serious view at how the media affects mass shooters.

 

9 minutes ago, Jenn123 said:

I don't think that line isn't first person though. I think the whole song is first person. That lyric ("Daddy's little psycho, mommy's little soldier") is arguably the punchline of the song and, I think, the most obviously satirical. 

Isn't satire a form of rhetoric?

Disagree 100%  When I hear that line I think of a direct link to Adam Lanza.  Adam's father left him early because he could not deal with him, or his mother, thus Daddy's little psycho and Adam's mother was a prepper.  That is a movement of people that are preparing for a catastrophe by arming themselves, stock piling food, etc.  She taught him how to shoot to prepare him.  Thus mommy's little soldier.  I took that line to mean how the shooter views himself within his own family structure.

Yes, satire is a form of rhetoric.  But rhetoric uses phrases to impress or persuade a thought or opinion, satire uses humor to mock a believe.  That is the big difference. I don't see this song mocking but trying to persuade someone about how external factors affect a mass shooter.

Well to end this, I think this just shows how freakin' brilliant this song is if we are  all getting different interpretations.  I think Billie wrote it to make us think, and we are.      

[Hermione]

3 minutes ago, JJ1964 said:

I think it is supposed to take a serious view at how the media affects mass shooters.

 

I think that too! Haha. I just think satire is part of it as well (as already explained), and that it doesn't take away from the seriousness.

5 minutes ago, JJ1964 said:

Well to end this, I think this just shows how freakin' brilliant this song is if we are  all getting different interpretations.  I think Billie wrote it to make us think, and we are.      

Couldn't agree more about this.