Blasphemy & Genocide: Unpopular Green Day Opinions, Part 2

[Leni.]

2 hours ago, MysticManiac said:

What's funny is around the 21CB era, GD released 2 hours of material as well which was of higher quality. In 2008 they released Stop Drop & Roll which was 32 minutes, then they released 21CB in 2009 which was 69 minutes long. And they released the B-sides and Bonus tracks which in total was about 24 minutes of material. In total that's 125 minutes (2 hours 5 minutes).

That's true, great remark from you, they're definitely able to put out quality in quantity, altough it happened under different circumstances, I think that's fair to say. Also the gap between the AI and 21stCB was 5 years, but I'm not sure if it had some impact or big influence on the song's quality. 

[Dakke]

7 hours ago, Ellen Caulfield said:

That's true, great remark from you, they're definitely able to put out quality in quantity, altough it happened under different circumstances, I think that's fair to say. Also the gap between the AI and 21stCB was 5 years, but I'm not sure if it had some impact or big influence on the song's quality. 

The gap was due to the difficult writing and conception process of 21st Century Breakdown. It took them 40 months from January 2006 to the end of recording in April 2009. Remember that they needed a third that amount of time to conceive, write and record American Idiot in its entirety (now I do believe Billie certainly drew some inspiration thematically and structurally from Warning, particularly Warning (political) and Misery (story)). It was a very frustrating process and Billie actually created the Hot Tubs alter ego to be away from the new album for a while. The Hot Tubs were their wild, unencumbered counterpart, but it's also around that time (2008) that Billie started drinking more extensively again. In the context of the wild FBHT shows, that posed no cause for concern, but in hindsight it sowed the seeds for the excessive abuse in the period between Broadway musical opening and iHeart. Therefore the long and frustrating creation of 21CB contributed indirectly to him going off the rails and even then Billie knew things were going wrong. If you listen to Restless Heart Syndrome and See the Light and pay close attention to the lyrics, there's a personal darkness lurking behind the conceptional gloom which was only fully revealed on Dos!

Now to return to the matter at hand, I don't believe it impacted the quality of the individual songs in a negative way. Save for Know Your Enemy, they are all lyrically of the best musical craftsmanship. The overall story, however, shouldn't have been there in the first place and suffered under the grand ambition to create an even longer and more epic record than AI. With its 70 minute length standard edition, it flirts with the limit of how long a single record can be without losing quality. The gap of course also allowed for more polish, but I don't think the storyline benefitted from the prolonged conception of the record. It almost certainly took a great toll on Billie's mind and body and is probably culpable of giving way to Billie's abuse post release. Rock operas are very time and energy-consuming to write and produce, particularly to keep a story straight and sensible throughout. There's a reason why the Who never wrote a third rock opera after Quadrophenia. Rush stated very explicitly that the troublesome recording process of their fourth opera Hemisphere led them towards more conventional, non-concept records, starting with Permanent Waves.

[DookieLukie]

Interesting how the Foxboro album which was put out quickly and as a "break" for other songwriting is high quality than the album it was considered a break from.

[stories and songs]

@Dakke, your posts are always so insightful and I really appreciate them. Your analysis of the behind-the-scenes situation with 21CB is very accurate, I believe. Just maybe a month or two ago, for some reason I felt the need to go back and read their Rolling Stone article from the beginning of that era. And I was blown away by how negative it read. Nothing about it was happy or exciting or hopeful, it was all about what a monster it was to create and how Billie was nervous about his kids listening to some of the darker things he wrote. 

It's interesting though—all that laboring over the album could definitely be viewed as forced, but I genuinely think it's one of their absolute best albums. I actually like the loose storyline of 21CB better than the more concrete one in AI. I love how Billie plays with identity and who you are versus what you project to the world. How Christian thinks Gloria is this amazing person, only to realize she's just a junkie preaching to the choir, and how Christian rages against "the enemy" only to realize he's his own worst enemy—it is brilliant writing in my mind. 

[Dakke]

2 minutes ago, stories and songs said:

@Dakke, your posts are always so insightful and I really appreciate them. Your analysis of the behind-the-scenes situation with 21CB is very accurate, I believe. Just maybe a month or two ago, for some reason I felt the need to go back and read their Rolling Stone article from the beginning of that era. And I was blown away by how negative it read. Nothing about it was happy or exciting or hopeful, it was all about what a monster it was to create and how Billie was nervous about his kids listening to some of the darker things he wrote. 

It's interesting though—all that laboring over the album could definitely be viewed as forced, but I genuinely think it's one of their absolute best albums. I actually like the loose storyline of 21CB better than the more concrete one in AI. I love how Billie plays with identity and who you are versus what you project to the world. How Christian thinks Gloria is this amazing person, only to realize she's just a junkie preaching to the choir, and how Christian rages against "the enemy" only to realize he's his own worst enemy—it is brilliant writing in my mind. 

Thank you very much for your feedback. I love discussing matters with you since your posts are also very insightful and in-depth. 

21st Century Breakdown is undoubtedly lyrically their most brilliant album. The story, however, should have been less vague. It loses its thread after Peacemaker and only picks it up with Restless Heart Syndrome. Had it been thoroughly fleshed out, the record would have equaled American Idiot storywise. Sometimes a magnum opus can drive an artist crazy to his own detriment. Psychologically Christian is a very interesting character, particularly how his thoughts and perception of the world relate to Billie's own perspective on the things he writes about. Billie's personal state of mind is almost tangible in songs like Restless Heart Syndrome and See the Light. 21CB is on a personal level brutally honest when one looks past the literal meaning of its lyrical brilliance and pierces the dramatic opacity of Christian and Gloria which separates the creator from the listener.

I cherish this record intensely because I don't think Billie wants to top it. Few legendary acts have produced more than two distinctive rock operas. They stand next to Pink Floyd and Rush in having accomplished that, but even they couldn't keep churning out such epic records for longer than a decade without some loss of quality. 21CB is the apex of their rock opera era, but also the end of it. They have completed that part of their musical voyage and have moved on and rightly so, for those who try recapture halcyon grandeur by re-enacting their heydays only end up blemishing their legacy. I can talk for days about the significance of this record for them as a band and what it meant for me as a listener and a person.

[Leni.]

10 hours ago, Dakke said:

The gap was due to the difficult writing and conception process of 21st Century Breakdown. It took them 40 months from January 2006 to the end of recording in April 2009. Remember that they needed a third that amount of time to conceive, write and record American Idiot in its entirety (now I do believe Billie certainly drew some inspiration thematically and structurally from Warning, particularly Warning (political) and Misery (story)). It was a very frustrating process and Billie actually created the Hot Tubs alter ego to be away from the new album for a while. The Hot Tubs were their wild, unencumbered counterpart, but it's also around that time (2008) that Billie started drinking more extensively again. In the context of the wild FBHT shows, that posed no cause for concern, but in hindsight it sowed the seeds for the excessive abuse in the period between Broadway musical opening and iHeart. Therefore the long and frustrating creation of 21CB contributed indirectly to him going off the rails and even then Billie knew things were going wrong. If you listen to Restless Heart Syndrome and See the Light and pay close attention to the lyrics, there's a personal darkness lurking behind the conceptional gloom which was only fully revealed on Dos!

Now to return to the matter at hand, I don't believe it impacted the quality of the individual songs in a negative way. Save for Know Your Enemy, they are all lyrically of the best musical craftsmanship. The overall story, however, shouldn't have been there in the first place and suffered under the grand ambition to create an even longer and more epic record than AI. With its 70 minute length standard edition, it flirts with the limit of how long a single record can be without losing quality. The gap of course also allowed for more polish, but I don't think the storyline benefitted from the prolonged conception of the record. It almost certainly took a great toll on Billie's mind and body and is probably culpable of giving way to Billie's abuse post release. Rock operas are very time and energy-consuming to write and produce, particularly to keep a story straight and sensible throughout. There's a reason why the Who never wrote a third rock opera after Quadrophenia. Rush stated very explicitly that the troublesome recording process of their fourth opera Hemisphere led them towards more conventional, non-concept records, starting with Permanent Waves.

Agreed. I noticed that in those songs too, it's interesting to see the problems don't show up from nothing one day. I consider 21stCB as a high quality album, the songs are just well written and the lyrics are very deep in my opinion. I used to listen to that album a lot, I mean it's one of my favourite and I highly appreciate it. I comlpetely agree on what you said about the storyline - I always ignored it mostly, because I liked the fact the songs can stand at their own without the storyline and still they make sense. There is so much behind some of those songs. The process was probably exhausting, but I think they managed to make an outstanding record.

 

9 hours ago, stories and songs said:

Just maybe a month or two ago, for some reason I felt the need to go back and read their Rolling Stone article from the beginning of that era. And I was blown away by how negative it read. Nothing about it was happy or exciting or hopeful, it was all about what a monster it was to create and how Billie was nervous about his kids listening to some of the darker things he wrote. 

It's interesting though—all that laboring over the album could definitely be viewed as forced, but I genuinely think it's one of their absolute best albums. I actually like the loose storyline of 21CB better than the more concrete one in AI. I love how Billie plays with identity and who you are versus what you project to the world. How Christian thinks Gloria is this amazing person, only to realize she's just a junkie preaching to the choir, and how Christian rages against "the enemy" only to realize he's his own worst enemy—it is brilliant writing in my mind. 

I think you're right. I mean, people often say they made that record only because AI was so succesful so they say it's just AI part II. For me, that opinion sounds quite stupid. No matter what the outcome is, the way they created it is always important for me, to try to understand it before I'll say something. That's what I like about this band, that they at least talk about what was it like for them to make a record and I find it interesting that it shows up in the songs as a result, too. I only keep removing the characters from the album, mostly, because then I see that the person who wrote it probably wouldn't write anything like that if he wouldn't have some kind of experience with it himself - and that's interesting I don't do this with AI, don't know why, maybe beacuse the storyline is somehow more concrete so I don't feel lost in it. I agree, the lyrics are brilliantly written, I consider some of those songs one of their best lyrically.

 

9 hours ago, Dakke said:

21st Century Breakdown is undoubtedly lyrically their most brilliant album. The story, however, should have been less vague. It loses its thread after Peacemaker and only picks it up with Restless Heart Syndrome. Had it been thoroughly fleshed out, the record would have equaled American Idiot storywise. Sometimes a magnum opus can drive an artist crazy to his own detriment. Psychologically Christian is a very interesting character, particularly how his thoughts and perception of the world relate to Billie's own perspective on the things he writes about. Billie's personal state of mind is almost tangible in songs like Restless Heart Syndrome and See the Light. 21CB is on a personal level brutally honest when one looks past the literal meaning of its lyrical brilliance and pierces the dramatic opacity of Christian and Gloria which separates the creator from the listener.

My thoughts  

[Stefano Bras]

Is liking Revolution Radio an unpopular opinion now? Geez.

[St. Jonny]

That would be absolutely ridiculous. I'm going to listen to it as I have done nearly everyday since it's release. Great album, through and through!

[RougeRogue]

1 hour ago, Stefano Bras said:

Is liking Revolution Radio an unpopular opinion now? Geez.

If it is, then I will gladly hop onto that train, no shame here.

[tresexy101]

Fat Mike from NOFX graduated college and didn't do drugs until he was 32.  He writes smart songs.  Now that Billie is sober, I hope he picks up a book or two and reads.  Smart people write good songs.  I wrote Foiled Can... btw.

[tresexy101]

4 minutes ago, Jake69 said:

Wat

I dunno, this thread is going in so many different directions I didn't know what to type except for what was written on the bottom of my left foot. 

[The Great Saiyaman]

Something I've never seen anybody say ever: I like the My Generation cover. One time I had it on repeat for some reason during a road trip and I fell in love with it. 

[Spike]

12 minutes ago, tacobellfan456 said:

Something I've never seen anybody say ever: I like the My Generation cover. One time I had it on repeat for some reason during a road trip and I fell in love with it. 

I like it! Mike's little bass fill and "Heineken, fuck that shit!" make it brilliant.

[Beerjeezus]

I like it too! I love my gen and I think they do it justice 

[Chin for a Day]

5 hours ago, tacobellfan456 said:

Something I've never seen anybody say ever: I like the My Generation cover. One time I had it on repeat for some reason during a road trip and I fell in love with it. 

It's a great cover!  I love it

[Dakke]

On 1/12/2017 at 6:09 AM, tacobellfan456 said:

Something I've never seen anybody say ever: I like the My Generation cover. One time I had it on repeat for some reason during a road trip and I fell in love with it. 

I love all their covers. Particularly the 2007-2009 era was great in this regard. I hope they play some covers during the tour or record some for a Record Store Day release.

[tresexy101]

Green Days cover of Fifteens' C Yo Yus or the real title - C#(tion) - kicks ass.  I dunno if this is off topic or whatever but there are 465 pages of this thread so I hope I don't get banned again. 

[sherribomb]

Haven't posted in this thread yet, so I thought I would give my two cents about a well worn subject;

 

I genuinely enjoy most of the Trilogy. Hate me if you please.

[Strychnine.]

16 hours ago, sherribomb said:

I genuinely enjoy most of the Trilogy. Hate me if you please.

 

I was just taking another listen to Uno the other day, definitely some good tunes there.

[St. Jonny]

All three have lots of great tunes! They are terribly underrated and lots of people around here love them.

[Christian's Inferno!]

Everyone can admit that the trilogy has flaws. But it irritates me when people make criticisms which are just as relevant in other albums e.g "All the songs sound the same" Dookie and Warning songs sound just as similar to each other (I still love those albums of course). "Random track listing" Nimrod has the most random track listing ever. "Overproduced" I'd take the trilogy's overproduction over 39/Smooth and Kerplunk's underproduction

[Libertine Angel]

1 minute ago, MysticManiac said:

Everyone can admit that the trilogy has flaws. But it irritates me when people make criticisms which are just as relevant in other albums e.g "All the songs sound the same" Dookie and Warning songs sound just as similar to each other (I still love those albums of course). "Random track listing" Nimrod has the most random track listing ever. "Overproduced" I'd take the trilogy's overproduction over 39/Smooth and Kerplunk's underproduction

Warning definitely has diversity, compare Castaway to Macy's Day Parade, or Misery to literally anything.

[Christian's Inferno!]

2 minutes ago, Libertine Angel said:

Warning definitely has diversity, compare Castaway to Macy's Day Parade, or Misery to literally anything.

Well other than MDP and Misery, all of the songs have the same kind of feel to it. Not criticizing the album, it's great. Just saying it's dumb when people criticize the trilogy for problems apparent in other albums. Also the songs that sound different get the most hate e.g Nightlife, Kill the DJ

[Dakke]

3 minutes ago, MysticManiac said:

Everyone can admit that the trilogy has flaws. But it irritates me when people make criticisms which are just as relevant in other albums e.g "All the songs sound the same" Dookie and Warning songs sound just as similar to each other (I still love those albums of course). "Random track listing" Nimrod has the most random track listing ever. "Overproduced" I'd take the trilogy's overproduction over 39/Smooth and Kerplunk's underproduction

While 'all the songs sound the same' is a vague criticism, it can be argued that Warning has far more diversity than for example Uno! Misery and Minority are totally different, as are Jackass and Church On Sunday. People call the trilogy 'overproduced' because its vocals and instrumentals are flatout sterile compared to even 21st Century Breakdown when vocal filters became a dominant element. It simply doesn't work for 'back to the roots' records. Even many Trilogy fans prefer the Demolicious sound over the album versions of the same songs. I agree that 'random track listing' isn't the strongest of the criticisms I have raised against the Trilogy.

4 minutes ago, MysticManiac said:

Well other than MDP and Misery, all of the songs have the same kind of feel to it. Not criticizing the album, it's great. Just saying it's dumb when people criticize the trilogy for problems apparent in other albums. Also the songs that sound different get the most hate e.g Nightlife, Kill the DJ

The rap part is just 'off' in my opinion and ruins an otherwise fun song. It doesn't sound like Green Day in a bad way. That mostly due to the collab and Lady Cobra's voice, thus it doesn't sound more like a Green Day song than any track on Foreverly does. Still, I think Nightlife is one of the most significant and personal songs of the Trilogy because it shows on a metaphorical level that Billie was completely losing control after the release of 21st Century Breakdown. Kill the DJ ain't too bad, but should have been on Dos! instead of Uno! with the whole party theme.

[Christian's Inferno!]

3 minutes ago, Dakke said:

While 'all the songs sound the same' is a vague criticism, it can be argued that Warning has far more diversity than for example Uno! Misery and Minority are totally different, as are Jackass and Church On Sunday. People call the trilogy 'overproduced' because its vocals and instrumentals are flatout sterile compared to even 21st Century Breakdown when vocal filters became a dominant element. It simply doesn't work for 'back to the roots' records. Even many Trilogy fans prefer the Demolicious sound over the album versions of the same songs. I agree that 'random track listing' isn't the strongest of the criticisms I have raised against the Trilogy.

I think that point is more valid with Dookie tbh. All the songs are similar sounding. When I first heard Dookie I honestly didn't think much of it because I had heard AI and 21CB before Dookie so I was expecting epic sounding songs. Obviously I love it now but a lot of the songs are the same kind of song. The point is quite valid with parts of Warning though

I'm not saying the trilogy isn't overproduced but it didn't really bother me that much. At least compared to the production of their pre-Dookie stuff. I think people are more forgiving of the problems with these albums because they were their first albums and while after 8 albums, they shouldn't be making such mistakes with lyrics or production but I'd prefer to listen to the trilogy than Kerplunk or 39/Smooth