Unpopular Green Day Opinions

[musso_kn]

I agree entirely. Fuck Time is hardly his most impressive rhythm. How he can write so many songs that sound different and still stay in 4/4 time with power chords is just AMAZING. I think anyone who can do that earns the genius commendation.

That's beauty of it. The band's best riffs -American Idiot, Know Your Enemy, Hitchin' A Ride, Brain Stew - are admittedly ridiculously simple. I'm an amateur guitar player, hadn't picked up guitar in a few months due to work etc, and mastered Know Your Enemy in ten minutes. It'a two fucking chords. But it's really, really memorable. And I couldn't come up with it. His guitar riffs are quite distinctive, if nothing else, and I feel for that Billie Joe should be applauded.

[Guest]

I agree entirely. Fuck Time is hardly his most impressive rhythm. How he can write so many songs that sound different and still stay in 4/4 time with power chords is just AMAZING. I think anyone who can do that earns the genius commendation.

I'm curious then, what would you consider, within Green Day's repertoire, to be a more complex riff than Fuck Time? As far as I can remember, it's the ONLY non-power chord riff he's ever written. And since it was a Hot Tubs song, I'm pretty sure he didn't even write the guitar for it.

And in all fairness, there's quite a lot of repetition in Green Day's songs. Billie reuses a lot of riffs and chord progressions, almost to the point where absolutely none of Green Day's songs are unique. It's clever that he's gotten away with it for so long, but it's hardly genius.

That's beauty of it. The band's best riffs -American Idiot, Know Your Enemy, Hitchin' A Ride, Brain Stew - are admittedly ridiculously simple. I'm an amateur guitar player, hadn't picked up guitar in a few months due to work etc, and mastered Know Your Enemy in ten minutes. It'a two fucking chords. But it's really, really memorable. And I couldn't come up with it. His guitar riffs are quite distinctive, if nothing else, and I feel for that Billie Joe should be applauded.

That's kinda the point I'm making. The riffs he writes are mindblowingly simple, and the way he plays them is mindblowingly simple. There's a reason Green Day are a band that a lot of guitar teachers use to teach kids the basics of guitar. I don't think Billie properly used a minor chord until Nimrod, which says a lot.

Sure, his riffs might be memorable and catchy, but so is Call Me Maybe, and I don't hear anyone calling Carly Rae Jepson a genius.

[musso_kn]

Sure, his riffs might be memorable and catchy, but so is Call Me Maybe, and I don't hear anyone calling Carly Rae Jepson a genius.

A) I'm not calling him a genius, not now, not ever. I will leave critics to argue about that in twenty years.

B) Call me maybe is one song. If Carly Rae Jepsen can provide me with a twenty year catalogue of sugary sweet guilty pleasure songs I pretend not to listen to, then, yeah, I think might say there's something special about her. However, I don't think this will happen. Might do, though.

Green Day have done what they do best for a long time, and generally sound quite fresh. I'd kill for some variation next time round, but they've done well to sustain a career over a limited range of chord progressions, to say the least.

Also, I have fully considered and pondered over the possibility that Billie Joe might be a paedophile. I don't really think so; it just crossed my mind, and I thought about it, long and hard.

[Guest]

A) I'm not calling him a genius, not now, not ever. I will leave critics to argue about that in twenty years.

B) Call me maybe is one song. If Carly Rae Jepsen can provide me with a twenty year catalogue of sugary sweet guilty pleasure songs I pretend not to listen to, then, yeah, I think might say there's something special about her. However, I don't think this will happen. Might do, though.

Green Day have done what they do best for a long time, and generally sound quite fresh. I'd kill for some variation next time round, but they've done well to sustain a career over a limited range of chord progressions, to say the least.

Also, I have fully considered and pondered over the possibility that Billie Joe might be a paedophile. I don't really think so; it just crossed my mind, and I thought about it, long and hard.

The genius thing was aimed at Sensei21, who seems to have a penchant for hyperbole, not you

I'll admit that no one does pop-punk/stadium-punk better than Green Day, but would it kill them to mix it up even a little? The trilogy broke effectively no new ground, with the guys doing nothing but changing the tone of the lyrics and adding a few guitar solos. The few stabs at creativity, which showed potential, were marred by a variety of absolute cock ups. Needlessly vulgar lyrics ruined the toe tapping Kill The DJ, which could have taken the radio by storm if the chorus hadn't been so monumentally dumb. Lady Nightlife's unrelenting awfulness and cheesiness turned Nightlife into a cringeworthy example of "how not to do hip-hop/rap". The Forgotten could have been good, if the lyrics weren't so incredibly vague, although it is a pretty song to listen to. Apart from those 3 examples, Green Day did nothing they hadn't done before.

When Green Day do stray from pop punk, they invariably make a balls of it. Which is unfortunate, because some of the stuff they've hinted at is quite good.

As for the pedophile thing, I guess there's a lot of that stuff going around these days. Makes you wonder after the Ian Watkins case and that guy from Blood On The Dancefloor.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Brutal Love, which is fantastic, but they kinda robbed the melody line... which I guess reinforces my point.

[musso_kn]

I'll admit that no one does pop-punk/stadium-punk better than Green Day, but would it kill them to mix it up even a little? The trilogy broke effectively no new ground, with the guys doing nothing but changing the tone of the lyrics and adding a few guitar solos. The few stabs at creativity, which showed potential, were marred by a variety of absolute cock ups. Needlessly vulgar lyrics ruined the toe tapping Kill The DJ, which could have taken the radio by storm if the chorus hadn't been so monumentally dumb. Lady Nightlife's unrelenting awfulness and cheesiness turned Nightlife into a cringeworthy example of "how not to do hip-hop/rap". The Forgotten could have been good, if the lyrics weren't so incredibly vague, although it is a pretty song to listen to. Apart from those 3 examples, Green Day did nothing they hadn't done before.

When Green Day do stray from pop punk, they invariably make a balls of it. Which is unfortunate, because some of the stuff they've hinted at is quite good.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Brutal Love, which is fantastic, but they kinda robbed the melody line... which I guess reinforces my point.

This is exactly what I was trying to say to you pages and pages ago! Although they do the pop punk thing well, a bit of expansion would be nice to hear, and the trilogy proves that.

I mean, yes, the trilogy experiments weren't spectacular (Brutal Love is wonderful though) but a little more focus could result in some interesting and successful variation.

[Guest]

This is exactly what I was trying to say to you pages and pages ago! Although they do the pop punk thing well, a bit of expansion would be nice to hear, and the trilogy proves that.

I mean, yes, the trilogy experiments weren't spectacular (Brutal Love is wonderful though) but a little more focus could result in some interesting and successful variation.

I'm sometimes quite bad at understanding what people are trying to say, apologies

Ironically enough, while Billie's lyrics are probably the strongest part of Green Day, they were consistently poor on the experimental parts of the Trilogy.

And I just want another song that Mike and Tré can do a 3 minute jam to that shows off their skills without Billie Joe feeling the urge to scream "hey oh" every 3 seconds. Is that too much to ask?

[solongfromthestars]

You know like there's that guy who does the Dookiefied covers? Someone should totally Nightlife-ify all the songs just because so many people would get their knickers in a twist over it.

[Guest]

You know like there's that guy who does the Dookiefied covers? Someone should totally Nightlife-ify all the songs just because so many people would get their knickers in a twist over it.

Ironically enough he's working on a Dookiefied cover of Nightlife at the moment

[Eva]

Yeah, I knew there must have been something. It always amazes me though, because Tré is a very talented drummer, and Mike has serious bass chops. Musically I think Billie Joe holds them back a lot. He's the weakest musician of the three by a great distance.

I think Billie could do more complicated guitar riffs if he wanted to. He seems stuck on power chords though.

[Guest]

I think Billie could do more complicated guitar riffs if he wanted to. He seems stuck on power chords though.

I remember now that there was a metal jam that they did a couple of times that actually had some almost hardcore stuff in it. Can't seem to find it anywhere on Youtube though, it's irritating me.

If anything the Trilogy has shown us that even Billie Joe can only do a limited amount with power chords without ripping off other bands or himself

EDIT: Got it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZnVzqvreqw

[musso_kn]

I'm sometimes quite bad at understanding what people are trying to say, apologies

Ironically enough, while Billie's lyrics are probably the strongest part of Green Day, they were consistently poor on the experimental parts of the Trilogy.

And I just want another song that Mike and Tré can do a 3 minute jam to that shows off their skills without Billie Joe feeling the urge to scream "hey oh" every 3 seconds. Is that too much to ask?

The lyrics are consistently poor and hollow throughout the trilogy, with the exception of X Kid and a few others.

But I like hey ho's. I like 'em a lot. But then, I never been to gig of theirs yet, sooo...

On a separate more positive note, I don't think Before The Lobotomy gets enough love. The last minute has such a 'doomy' feel to it, a bit like the outro to Brutal Love. It almost makes me feel as if the apocalypse is coming, and no I'm not exaggerating.

[Guest]

The lyrics are consistently poor and hollow throughout the trilogy, with the exception of X Kid and a few others.

But I like hey ho's. I like 'em a lot. But then, I never been to gig of theirs yet, sooo...

There are a few exceptions, but without a doubt this is a definite low for Billie as a songwriter.

I've only seen them once, and I was already starting to get sick of them halfway through the show. It got to the stage where I felt like screaming "JUST PLAY THE FUCKING SONG ALREADY"

[Snows]

I don't like the My generation cover. I think it's awful.

[Guest]

I don't like the My generation cover. I think it's awful.

I quite like it. When me and my brother jam to it we play it Green Day style rather than The Who style. But maybe that's because we don't have a bassist

[J of Suburbia]

I wish the studio version of Nightlife would have been done the same way it was shown in Cuatro, without Lady Cobra.

[Snows]

I quite like it. When me and my brother jam to it we play it Green Day style rather than The Who style. But maybe that's because we don't have a bassist

The bass in the original version is just awesome.

[Guest]

The bass in the original version is just awesome.

I completely agree, if we had a bassist, that's how we'd play it

[Jon Benjamin]

You know like there's that guy who does the Dookiefied covers? Someone should totally Nightlife-ify all the songs just because so many people would get their knickers in a twist over it.

I'll pass. I don't dislike nightlife, but it needs to stay a one time thing. To me nightlife is at the same level of the overplayed singles (good riddance, wmuwse, bobd, 21 guns)

[Anaïs.]

Yeah, I knew there must have been something. It always amazes me though, because Tré is a very talented drummer, and Mike has serious bass chops. Musically I think Billie Joe holds them back a lot. He's the weakest musician of the three by a great distance.

I think that Green Day are a lot like The Who. Tre's drumming is heavier than Keith Moon's, but they both have the same all-over-the-place fast and sloppy style, and Mike and John Entwistle both like to play their bass like a lead guitar a lot of the time. The problem is in the guitarist. In The Who, Pete Townshend always recognized that his rhythm guitar abilities, while perfectly competent, were nowhere near the level of his bandmates' abilities; because of this, he'd keep his guitar sparse and in the background much of the time, and let Entwistle's bass and Moon's drums carry the song (best example of this is Quadrophenia's "The Real Me".

Billie used to do this, and that's when Mike's abilities, in particular, would really shine through—songs like "Longview" and "Minority" are pretty much centered around his basslines, which are insanely well-done. However, starting with American Idiot, the guitar began to become more and more prominent, and Mike got relegated to the background more and more. Now, I love American Idiot, but listening to the bass is always sad for me, because it basically just copies Billie's guitar the whole way through (and no, the beginning of "Tales from Another Broken Home" is not an exception—it's two notes, that's all). Granted, most of their stuff now is a lot more arena-rock than it was, but The Who were perhaps the great arena rock band, and they always kept their drums and bass in mind. I hate to say it, because Billie Joe is one of the people who has changed my life and whom I intensely admire, but he's become more and more egocentric and self-important in terms of his musicianship in the last ten years. That's also why I think his songwriting has suffered—he's trying far too hard to Be Important and Word Things Eloquently and Make a Statement. And as his musicianship suffers and his lyrics get more and more incomprehensible, Mike and Tre are sent to the background more and more.

[Cob]

Any good songwriter, and any good rock musician, sets limitations for themselves. When the focus of the music is on the song and the band and the sum of it's parts, technical abilities are worthless. When the goal is the song, then the goal is to make a connection with the listener.

Green Day is the best example of this. Not only are all three (four) immensely talented performers (which is the mark of any great musician), but they're also immensely talented songwriters. That's where they set themselves up as awesome musicians. So fucking what if all their songs are in 4/4? Basket Case wouldn't be Basket Case if it were in 7/4 or 12/8. It wouldn't mean the same thing if it were overtly complex. Green Day is all about serving the song so that it serves the listener. The drum fill that opens up the band in Basket Case, to continue using that example, had to be recorded many times because Tre felt he was being too grandiose about it and too crazy. The end result? One of the best drum intros in the history of music.

Billie Joe is a great guitar player because he has an amazing sense of melody. His melodies don't follow the guitar, the guitar follows his melody. He's precise in picking out a piece on an instrument and making it sound exactly the way he wants it to. The melody is at the forefront, it's what drives the song, and the guitar is what sustains that. Viva La Gloria and Letterbomb are terrific examples of this. The chord progressions are a little tricky at first because they follow such a flowing melody, and the end result is marvelous. And on top of that it means something. That to me is more powerful than a meaningless soup of "intricate" notes.

And then Mike Dirnt. Incredible bassist. On the old work, he was great at filling in the melody and driving it, not just sustaining it like the guitar, but driving it forward. Little notes here and there add color, change the rhythm, and rework the dynamics. And all in the name of serving the song. On the new albums hes an even better player. The mark of a good bassist is that they know their role. On American Idiot and 21st Century Breakdown, it was evident that the band was stepping into more experimental territory. Layered guitars, layered strings, pianos, percussion accompaniments, harmony arrangements (another thing Billie Joe is really good at, by the way). The melody no longer needed to be driven by the bass, otherwise it would be a mess. So he stepped his playing back to create more breathing room in the song, in the mix. So many of the songs on 21st Century Breakdown would have sounded completely jumbled and overwhelming had Mike continued writing his basslines the way he had been. What he adds, to serve the song, is perfect.

Green Day are great musicians because they are song-craftsmen. On top of being amazing performers, they know what a song needs, what helps it, what brings it to life and what pulls it forward. 99% of the time they are successful. And those songs always mean something. Make no mistake, music is worthless if it means nothing to you.

[musso_kn]

Any good songwriter, and any good rock musician, sets limitations for themselves. When the focus of the music is on the song and the band and the sum of it's parts, technical abilities are worthless. When the goal is the song, then the goal is to make a connection with the listener.

Green Day is the best example of this. Not only are all three (four) immensely talented performers (which is the mark of any great musician), but they're also immensely talented songwriters. That's where they set themselves up as awesome musicians. So fucking what if all their songs are in 4/4? Basket Case wouldn't be Basket Case if it were in 7/4 or 12/8. It wouldn't mean the same thing if it were overtly complex. Green Day is all about serving the song so that

it serves the listener. The drum fill that opens up the band in Basket Case, to continue using that example, had to be recorded many times because Tre felt he was being too grandiose about it and too crazy. The end result? One of the best drum intros in the history of music.

Billie Joe is a great guitar player because he has an amazing sense of melody. His melodies don't follow the guitar, the guitar follows his melody. He's precise in picking out a piece on an instrument and making it sound exactly the way he wants it to. The melody is at the forefront, it's what drives the song, and the guitar is what sustains that. Viva La Gloria and Letterbomb are terrific examples of this. The chord progressions are a little tricky at first because they follow such a flowing melody, and the end result is marvelous. And on top of that it means something. That to me is more powerful than a meaningless soup of "intricate" notes.

And then Mike Dirnt. Incredible bassist. On the old work, he was great at filling in the melody and driving it, not just sustaining it like the guitar, but driving it forward. Little notes here and there add color, change the rhythm, and rework the dynamics. And all in the name of serving the song. On the new albums hes an even better player. The mark of a good bassist is that they know their role. On American Idiot and 21st Century Breakdown, it was evident that the band was stepping into more experimental territory. Layered guitars, layered strings, pianos, percussion accompaniments, harmony arrangements (another thing Billie Joe is really good at, by the way). The melody no longer needed to be driven by the bass, otherwise it would be a mess. So he stepped his playing back to create more breathing room in the song, in the mix. So many of the songs on 21st Century Breakdown would have sounded completely jumbled and overwhelming had Mike continued writing his basslines the way he had been. What he adds, to serve the song, is perfect.

Green Day are great musicians because they are song-craftsmen. On top of being amazing performers, they know what a song needs, what helps it, what brings it to life and what pulls it forward. 99% of the time they are successful. And those songs always mean something. Make no mistake, music is worthless if it means nothing to you.

You know, even my own negativity in this thread gets me down sometimes.Then you come along and say something beautiful and intelligent. <3

[Hermione]

Their songwriting isn't exactly very complex. Someone feel free to correct me, but have they ever left 4/4 time? Billie Joe is undoubtedly a fine lyricist, but after the 150th song consisting of only power chords an obvious pattern emerges

One could argue that musicianship and performance are completely separate entities. Take Enya for example, an incredibly talented musician who's never performed live. Green Day are exceptional performers, but I'm not sure if I'd class that as anything to do with musicianship.

Complexity isn't everything. Some musicians are great because of their complex playing but with others the beauty is in simplicity, or rawness, or passion, or any number of other factors. I mean shit, they're from a punk scene! Complex technical musical or lyrical accomplishment isn't what musicians of that genre are particularly aiming for, their talent lies in other areas. As Billie once said "They don't need a 15 minute cocaine wank guitar solo and we don't give it to them". They're not more complex because they don't need or want to be, regardless of whether they could be or not.

I love you

[Guest]

I can't top that, and I won't try. All I'm saying is that Green Day have been writing the same song for 20 years now, and it'd be nice to see them do something new. No one writes that song better than them, but sooner or later it wears thin.

Complexity isn't everything. Some musicians are great because of their complex playing but with others the beauty is in simplicity, or rawness, or passion, or any number of other factors. I mean shit, they're from a punk scene! Complex technical musical or lyrical accomplishment isn't what musicians of that genre are particularly aiming for, their talent lies in other areas. As Billie once said "They don't need a 15 minute cocaine wank guitar solo and we don't give it to them". They're not more complex because they don't need or want to be, regardless of whether they could be or not.

I'm not saying they need 15 minute songs or whatever. One of my favourite bands, Biffy Clyro, are incredibly talented musicians, and have never written a song that hits the 6 minute mark. Yet they've never written a song that has even the same chord progression. Heck, they've been releasing stuff since 1998, and it's only this year they recorded a song in 4/4. And these are a band that grew up listening to Nirvana and Green Day, who's early demos could be mistaken for B-sides from 39/Smooth.

Anyway, bit off-topicish there, but Mike and Tré have the prequisite skills to expand Green Day's sound. I'd just love for them to do it. They've taken this sound as far as they can possibly go.

[Hermione]

I'm not saying they need 15 minute songs or whatever. One of my favourite bands, Biffy Clyro, are incredibly talented musicians, and have never written a song that hits the 6 minute mark. Yet they've never written a song that has even the same chord progression. Heck, they've been releasing stuff since 1998, and it's only this year they recorded a song in 4/4. And these are a band that grew up listening to Nirvana and Green Day, who's early demos could be mistaken for B-sides from 39/Smooth.

Anyway, bit off-topicish there, but Mike and Tré have the prequisite skills to expand Green Day's sound. I'd just love for them to do it. They've taken this sound as far as they can possibly go.

It's true that they've stuck to a general pop punk theme over the years but within that they've experimented quite a bit. A lot compared to many other bands, they've got all kinds of different sounds on every album even if most of them share that pop punk link. A band's got to have something that makes their sound their sound, I think Green Day have a pretty good balance of maintaining that while experimenting with different sounds and influences at the same time.

I always like their quirkier/more different songs so I'd be happy for them to experiment as much as they want, but I don't think they're completely lacking in that department the way you're making out. There's plenty of new sounds on Uno Dos and Tre to my ears, just because it's not radically different it doesn't mean it's all just the same. There's tons of bands who really do just have one song written over and over but I can't accept the idea that Green Day's one of them , there's loads of variety from album to album and song to song even if it isn't the most extreme possible variety.

[TimmyChunks]

Any good songwriter, and any good rock musician, sets limitations for themselves. When the focus of the music is on the song and the band and the sum of it's parts, technical abilities are worthless. When the goal is the song, then the goal is to make a connection with the listener.

Green Day is the best example of this. Not only are all three (four) immensely talented performers (which is the mark of any great musician), but they're also immensely talented songwriters. That's where they set themselves up as awesome musicians. So fucking what if all their songs are in 4/4? Basket Case wouldn't be Basket Case if it were in 7/4 or 12/8. It wouldn't mean the same thing if it were overtly complex. Green Day is all about serving the song so that it serves the listener. The drum fill that opens up the band in Basket Case, to continue using that example, had to be recorded many times because Tre felt he was being too grandiose about it and too crazy. The end result? One of the best drum intros in the history of music.

Billie Joe is a great guitar player because he has an amazing sense of melody. His melodies don't follow the guitar, the guitar follows his melody. He's precise in picking out a piece on an instrument and making it sound exactly the way he wants it to. The melody is at the forefront, it's what drives the song, and the guitar is what sustains that. Viva La Gloria and Letterbomb are terrific examples of this. The chord progressions are a little tricky at first because they follow such a flowing melody, and the end result is marvelous. And on top of that it means something. That to me is more powerful than a meaningless soup of "intricate" notes.

And then Mike Dirnt. Incredible bassist. On the old work, he was great at filling in the melody and driving it, not just sustaining it like the guitar, but driving it forward. Little notes here and there add color, change the rhythm, and rework the dynamics. And all in the name of serving the song. On the new albums hes an even better player. The mark of a good bassist is that they know their role. On American Idiot and 21st Century Breakdown, it was evident that the band was stepping into more experimental territory. Layered guitars, layered strings, pianos, percussion accompaniments, harmony arrangements (another thing Billie Joe is really good at, by the way). The melody no longer needed to be driven by the bass, otherwise it would be a mess. So he stepped his playing back to create more breathing room in the song, in the mix. So many of the songs on 21st Century Breakdown would have sounded completely jumbled and overwhelming had Mike continued writing his basslines the way he had been. What he adds, to serve the song, is perfect.

Green Day are great musicians because they are song-craftsmen. On top of being amazing performers, they know what a song needs, what helps it, what brings it to life and what pulls it forward. 99% of the time they are successful. And those songs always mean something. Make no mistake, music is worthless if it means nothing to you.

This is one of the best posts I've ever read. If I could like it 1,000 times I would. I generally detest the "onion" analogy, but right now I can't think of a better way to describe it- their songs on the surface seem relatively simple structurally and musically, and that's where much of the genius lies. As you peel back the layers you start to expose much of the incredible complexity and beauty- the unique way Billie's melody overlaps his chord progressions in an independent yet complementary fashion, the way Mike's bassline ties in Tre's drumming to both the melody and the guitar...and to top it off, as you mention, the melodies and harmonies both run parallel and yet independent of the progression that he and Jason are playing. None of these things taken as a singular element is particularly genius (although all parts are executed very well), but layered all together they form something incredible. I love the way you articulate this dynamic. Song craftsmen of songs that mean something. That's the magic right there.