COMETBUS #54 Green Day In China?!

[Bastard of 1967]

We'd have neutered works of art, who the fuck wants that?

Like BJ, Aaron certainly had a point he wanted to make and, I believe, he intended to do nothing more than urge Green Day's hard-core fans to take a deep, hard look at our behavior. But a lot of me still goes because, art or not, and regardless of intentions, word choices are word choices. Those words can and do hurt, and particularly in Aaron's case I think he could have made the same constructive points in a way that didn't invite the kind of criticism he's now receiving -- that is, without making assumptions about things he knows nothing about and painting all of us with the same broad, hurtful, and spiteful brush. I'm not going to him a pass on his choice of words here just because he's an artist, no less than I would be willing to give BJ a pass on East Jesus Nowhere if I were, say, a devout Catholic who took offense at it. Yet at the same time I don't listen to EJN and walk away with the sense that Billie is ever trying to say that "all Catholics are like this." Aaron's words leave a lot of us with a different taste.

[Katarina.]

Looks like GDA/GDC will be distributing this issue, and we'll make sure to use the most fair shipping method we can find for international (and everyone else). But doing the group thing is a really good idea. Each person ends up paying less shipping that way .

And P.S. we'll have the details soon, but this is just happening as we speak, so we don't know everything yet.

Awesome J'net! I'll just wait with buying my copy then.. cause maybe it'll be better/cheaper to buy it on GDA/GDC.

[Abbey.]

When I first read COMETBUS #53, the issue that came out prior to the current one, I had, as I always do, an intense reaction to Aaron’s writing. In typical Abbey fashion, I zipped off a letter to his PO box and it contained my initial thoughts, which largely projected my own life onto the issue’s topics and writing. When re-reading #53 a month or so later I realized I had unfairly personalized Aaron and his contributors writings and I promptly wrote him back telling him I think I may have misinterpreted some of the issue.

Well here we go again, COMETBUS #54 and once again, I have an intense reaction to Aaron’s writing, shoot off my words (this time into the interwebsphere instead of in a letter to Aaron) and with some new insight, I have kinder, gentler views on what I called Aaron’s hateful words in #54. Also shame on me for asking to be humanized by Aaron and not giving him the same courtesy.

I think part of having a slightly better understanding of Aaron’s observation/disgust of the Superfan (I like this word, I think it quite accurately describes the people we are talking about) comes from thinking about Aaron Cometbus.

While I do not have any relationship with Aaron, I will dare to characterize him to be a talented observer of the world around him, a man that lives a quiet, thoughtful life, surrounded by his books. He strikes me as vigorously opposed to the culture of wealth accumulation and excess. He sees the world though his own diy filter and has stuck to his beliefs in his way of life even into his early 40s when probably 99.9% of people give that up in their 20s for careers and wealth accumulation. I did not understand how the way he views the world SO DEEPLY impacts Aaron Cometbus as the outside observer in COMETBUS #54, until at least last night.

So with some more thought on Aaron the person, I need to change my interpretation of his views of the Superfans. I see his views now not as an “attack” on individuals be they female, middle-aged, lost-looking, or eerie, I see them as a detatched social commentary on what he has always probably railed against, the entitled-class of wealth accumulators that he believes greedily buys their way into each and every show. He feels the Japan fans are crazed in the manner in which they express their fandom for the band through the streets/airports/trains of Japan, but he is comparing them to the American entitled-class of wealth accumulators that show up day-in and day-out at Green Day shows sucking up the entertainment just as they suck up shopping-bags full of crap at the malls. He is against what he sees these people taking and taking and taking and taking and taking from the band. This, he is clearly against. I think his message to these people is probably nothing more than CHILL.

So, I have a new enlightened view of what Aaron was attempting to express. Do I still self-identify with the type of people he is referring to? Yes, probably even more so, but in a better understanding of the type of people he is hating on. Surely there are “truths” he expressed about the American superfans which he does not know to be literal truths about the people. They cant be, he simply doesn’t know them. But to Aaron Cometbus they are truths from his perspective as an amazing and detatched observer/writer of deep deep deep diy convictions.

[Hermione]

Surely there are “truths” he expressed about the American superfans which he does not know to be literal truths about the people. They cant be, he simply doesn’t know them. But to Aaron Cometbus they are truths from his perspective as an amazing and detatched observer/writer of deep deep deep diy convictions.

There's nothing to stop him talking to those people and trying find out more about them and their motives instead of just judging on appearances though. If he doesn't know something he should try to find out before he judges, do a bit of research. That's my only issue.

I mean that statement about only creepy fans knowing "the big three" is just pure ignorance. Jason White is in their music videos, has been in interviews with the band, has been on stage with them for over 10 years and Billie introduces him at least once at every show, and he's in Aaron's band! The smallest amount of thought or research and he wouldn't have said that, but he leapt to conclusions instead. Making judgements that are only based on appearances and ignore facts that would easily become apparent with a little research is an ignorant thing to do and he deserves to be called out for it.

[Abbey.]

There's nothing to stop him talking to those people and trying find out more about them and their motives instead of just judging on appearances though. If he doesn't know something he should try to find out before he judges, do a bit of research. That's my only issue.

But that is not the goal of this section in COMETBUS #54. His interest lies not in the motives behind American superfans attending show after show after show, rather his interest lies in portraying how this vapid group compares to their Japanese counterparts.

[greendaytone]

Another interesting twist in the tale. Thanks for sharing those thoughts Abbey, makes a lot of sense. As do most of the views i've read since this all kicked off, in their own way. I do hope that Aaron has/will taken an interest in the response from Green Day fans, because i think it could help him understand our perspective and reasoning on it all.

[Hermione]

But that is not the goal of this section in COMETBUS #54. His interest lies not in the motives behind American superfans attending show after show after show, rather his interest lies in portraying how this vapid group compares to their Japanese counterparts.

That's just something he's invented though, it's not reality. He's judged and stereotyped them as being vapid based only on appearances without making any attempt to find out if that's really the case. The only factor he seems to have looked at is the fact they've spent a lot of money to travel.......I can't really see how spending money you've earned to watch a band you enjoy is much different to sponging a plane ticket and free shows off the band to watch them. "They spent a lot of money" isn't enough to criticize on it's own without knowing their motives for spending the money imo.

[IscoredWaddlesgoals]

Firstly using 'fatherless' and 'middle aged' as insults is not just wrong, but stupid. Like I've said in a previous post, does this mean my 'fatherless' friend can't enjoy Green Day because her dad died ? Or other people can't if they've been raised by a single mother ? I don't know what people's age has to do with it either.

Secondly, what's the difference between an enthusiastic Japanese fan and an American one ? Is he just saying he prefers the first because he can't understand them or because they're not American ?

[Abbey.]

I mean that statement about only creepy fans knowing "the big three" is just pure ignorance. Jason White is in their music videos, has been in interviews with the band, has been on stage with them for over 10 years and Billie introduces him at least once at every show, and he's in Aaron's band! The smallest amount of thought or research and he wouldn't have said that, but he leapt to conclusions instead. Making judgements that are only based on appearances and ignore facts that would easily become apparent with a little research is an ignorant thing to do and he deserves to be called out for it.

He would define those of us that post regularly on here as obsessed fans. I believe he uses the word creepy, or freaky, whichever he uses (I dont have my copy in front of me) to mean nothing more than fans that are a bit too obsessed. Guilty as charged.

does this mean my 'fatherless' friend can't enjoy Green Day because her dad died ? Or other people can't if they've been raised by a single mother ?

No

Secondly, what's the difference between an enthusiastic Japanese fan and an American one ? Is he just saying he prefers the first because he can't understand them or because they're not American ?

he sees a difference in the fandom of the Japanese superfans vs. the American superfans. The Japanese superfans have a Mark David Chapman quality to them that the American superfans do not. I guess if there is one upside to it is that he didnt think American superfans were a bunch of gun-toting crazies!

That's just something he's invented though, it's not reality. He's judged and stereotyped them as being vapid based only on appearances without making any attempt to find out if that's really the case. The only factor he seems to have looked at is the fact they've spent a lot of money to travel.......I can't really see how spending money you've earned to watch a band you enjoy is much different to sponging a plane ticket and free shows off the band to watch them. "They spent a lot of money" isn't enough to criticize on it's own without knowing their motives for spending the money imo.

I would dare to say he is not interested in assessing us as individuals. And I think that's ok. That American superfans are vapid vs. the Japanese fans...I would view that as one in the plus column for American superfans actually.

Again he doesnt write to examine motives. He is making an observation based on the their collective fan behavior and actions. And he clearly does not agree that spending money to travel and see Green Day show after Green Day show after Green Day show is a good use of money. He is certainly entitled to that opinion.

[Hermione]

He would define those of us that post regularly on here as obsessed fans. I believe he uses the word creepy, or freaky, whichever he uses (I dont have my copy in front of me) to mean nothing more than fans that are a bit too obsessed. Guilty as charged.

Oh I'm sure he would . That could be a reasonable conclusion to come to though, it's a fact that we're spending a significant amount of time on coming here - it'd be a judgement based on fact. Whereas with this he's made some sweeping statements and just plain incorrect statements that indicate his judgement might be based a lot more on what he wants to believe than reality. I can't respect an opinion that's based on assumptions instead of facts.

[GDM]

My use of the term "superfan" was never meant to be derisive or insulting, nor was it an attempt to diminish people by hanging a label on them. It's just that for the sake of economy and fluidity of language, I had to come up with some alternative to "people who travel all over the country and the world attending Green Day and Green Day-related events and may or may not be the people who are referred to in Aaron Cometbus' remarks."

"Superfan" seemed like a fairly neutral way of describing those people; it implies neither criticism nor praise, and is certainly more tolerant and objective a term than any of those employed by Aaron. IF, of course, he was talking about any of the same people I was talking about. Which, unless we put him together in a room with everyone here who considers themselves to be a Really Big Fan (better than "superfan?") and ask him straight out, "Are these the people you meant?"

And you're correct in assuming that this is probably not going to happen.

There was no way that you could have known that I have a disdain for that word. I have never talked about it with you or on my blog. It mostly stems from a blog post written by a woman who no longer blogs about Green Day. stems from a blog post written by ABBEY on someone else's blog though the blog is no longer around. She, in fact, is one of the commenters on your post that talked the worst about "these women," which just gave her fuel for things that happened to her in the past. And, as you can see from some of the of the other remarks in the comments, some people fling it out like curse. But yes, it was more tolerant than anything used by Aaron, that's for sure.

[J'net]

I think part of having a slightly better understanding of Aaron’s observation/disgust of the Superfan ... comes from thinking about Aaron Cometbus.

I completely agree. And while I can't find it okay that Aaron stated things as facts that were NOT facts (and I really feel sure about that), I have tried to see it from Aaron's perspective as well.

It occurs to me that not everyone has the same kind of thought processes. People are different. I'm a very logical thinker. What Aaron wrote in that second controversial paragraph was not factually true (well, part of it was ... "The decadence of it made me sick"). I hate stretching, obfuscation or straight-out fabrication of "facts." So, as a logical thinker, that portion of the paragraph bothers me.

Now, I also have a strong appreciation for the thinker who has more creativity in his little finger than I have in my entire soul. And I understand that it would be unusual for that person to follow my logical thought processes. I can just almost grasp the fact that, when Aaron looked out at the crowd, he saw exactly what he wrote. He saw people with expense accounts - he saw those same faces at every single show. He wrote from his heart what he saw. If it wasn't black and white, logical fact, that's because his brain doesn't work that way.

This, in my opinion, does not excuse the judgmental nature of what he wrote. But that simply makes me like him a little less as a person. It doesn't outrage me. I think he could benefit in his outlook on the world by getting to know some of us. But, I don't think I know anyone who's not judgmental to some degree - it's just that most of us don't publish it for the world to see.

So, as I said in my previous post - somewhere above - I'll still be reading #54. Everything I've heard from anyone who read it makes me think that, if those two paragraphs (and that one other little comment) weren't in it, it would be the most beautiful, moving narrative I've ever read regarding my favorite band. I'm going to try to focus on that aspect of it and enjoy the read .

[Abbey.]

There was no way that you could have known that I have a disdain for that word. I have never talked about it with you or on my blog. It mostly stems from a blog post written by a woman who no longer blogs about Green Day.

Tanya, I actually wrote the SUPERFAN piece on Delfina's blog. Yeah, I started that shitstorm too

[GDM]

Tanya, I actually wrote the SUPERFAN piece on Delfina's blog. Yeah, I started that shitstorm too

Right... now I remember. God, I just wanted to choke you at the time, lol.

[November's Storms]

I think the term superfan fits perfectly. Aside from the obvious connection to International Superhits and Supervideos that is. A fan is someone who goes to a show and sings along and enjoys it, as tens of thousands of people do no matter where Green Day go. A superfan is someone who travels across countries and continents to see them, or knows there side projects or stuff like that.

I'm not implying they are a better fan or deserve special treatment. In terms of a fan of anything, a band, a team, a person, whatever, a superfan would imply someone is affected or has a bigger place in their lives for whatever they are a fan of.

[Abbey.]

I think the term superfan fits perfectly. Aside from the obvious connection to International Superhits and Supervideos that is. A fan is someone who goes to a show and sings along and enjoys it, as tens of thousands of people do no matter where Green Day go. A superfan is someone who travels across countries and continents to see them, or knows there side projects or stuff like that.

I'm not implying they are a better fan or deserve special treatment. In terms of a fan of anything, a band, a team, a person, whatever, a superfan would imply someone is affected or has a bigger place in their lives for whatever they are a fan of.

personally i LOVE the word. in my bio here on the GDC i specifically mention the time when i crossed the line to becoming a superfan, or as I have always said, SUPERFAN! to me, there very much is a line one crosses into the world of the SUPERFAN! yeah, i crossed it...

[GDM]

Tanya, I actually wrote the SUPERFAN piece on Delfina's blog. Yeah, I started that shitstorm too

Oh... and stop starting up shitstorms! Geez!

[November's Storms]

personally i LOVE the word. in my bio here on the GDC i specifically mention the time when i crossed the line to becoming a superfan, or as I have always said, SUPERFAN! to me, there very much is a line one crosses into the world of the SUPERFAN! yeah, i crossed it...

Yeah me too, I'd like to think I am indeed a superfan. As vain or conceited as some might think that sounds, I feel I've earned it. (whatever "it" is in this case!)

[GDM]

personally i LOVE the word. in my bio here on the GDC i specifically mention the time when i crossed the line to becoming a superfan, or as I have always said, SUPERFAN! to me, there very much is a line one crosses into the world of the SUPERFAN! yeah, i crossed it...

That term still and will always conjure up bad images for me. I can't help it. Sorry.

[Abbey.]

That term still and will always conjure up bad images for me. I can't help it. Sorry.

accept with lurve you stalker-bitch-woman-child.

[Hermione]

I completely agree. And while I can't find it okay that Aaron stated things as facts that were NOT facts (and I really feel sure about that), I have tried to see it from Aaron's perspective as well.

It occurs to me that not everyone has the same kind of thought processes. People are different. I'm a very logical thinker. What Aaron wrote in that second controversial paragraph was not factually true (well, part of it was ... "The decadence of it made me sick"). I hate stretching, obfuscation or straight-out fabrication of "facts." So, as a logical thinker, that portion of the paragraph bothers me.

Now, I also have a strong appreciation for the thinker who has more creativity in his little finger than I have in my entire soul. And I understand that it would be unusual for that person to follow my logical thought processes. I can just almost grasp the fact that, when Aaron looked out at the crowd, he saw exactly what he wrote. He saw people with expense accounts - he saw those same faces at every single show. He wrote from his heart what he saw. If it wasn't black and white, logical fact, that's because his brain doesn't work that way.

This, in my opinion, does not excuse the judgmental nature of what he wrote. But that simply makes me like him a little less as a person. It doesn't outrage me. I think he could benefit in his outlook on the world by getting to know some of us. But, I don't think I know anyone who's not judgmental to some degree - it's just that most of us don't publish it for the world to see.

So, as I said in my previous post - somewhere above - I'll still be reading #54. Everything I've heard from anyone who read it makes me think that, if those two paragraphs (and that one other little comment) weren't in it, it would be the most beautiful, moving narrative I've ever read regarding my favorite band. I'm going to try to focus on that aspect of it and enjoy the read .

Such a good point, two paragraphs doesn't mar the rest of it at all. When it comes to any piece of writing you can't expect to like, agree with, or respect every single thing in it, even if it's amazing there might be bits like that. But however good it is overall I think it's OK to criticize those bits just as it is to praise the good bits

[GDM]

accept with lurve you stalker-bitch-woman-child.

ha! not a chance!

[Abbey.]

That term still and will always conjure up bad images for me. I can't help it. Sorry.

if you remember i do use the term with a hair of disdain in the amount of time and energy superfans spend on their, well, superfandom. but i self-identify with that too!

[J'net]

Such a good point, two paragraphs doesn't mar the rest of it at all. When it comes to any piece of writing you can't expect to like, agree with, or respect every single thing in it, even if it's amazing there might be bits like that. But however good it is overall I think it's OK to criticize those bits just as it is to praise the good bits

I completely agree! I will continue to dislike the non-facts and the judgmental nature of that part, but I'm expecting to really love the rest of it. Now if I can just get one to find out. Oh wait! There's a whole box full of them on the way to my house!

[GDM]

Such a good point, two paragraphs doesn't mar the rest of it at all. When it comes to any piece of writing you can't expect to like, agree with, or respect every single thing in it, even if it's amazing there might be bits like that. But however good it is overall I think it's OK to criticize those bits just as it is to praise the good bits

See... that is a really good point. When people write, "well, it's his writing, he can say what he wants," I say to that, of course he can say what he wants, if he's writing it, but he or anyone else has got to expect people to criticize it. I feel the same way about Green Day, people can criticize things, it's natural. Just remember the Peru thread... and thank God this thread isn't it, lol.

If I hadn't been called out in Larry's post, when I wrote about the issue, I wasn't going to make such a big deal out of it. It's a small part of a great story. Of course when people first read something and are "insulted" by it, they will focus on that first. It just feels like now we just need to move on and talk about something else... can't wait for more people to read it.