Why do you think 21CB didn't do as well as American Idiot?

[mmmcrazypills]

I think 21cb didn't do as well as American Idiot because it was expected. American Idiot was a fresh thing when it debuted, it was epic. 21stcb is just a rehash. I think if the albums were released the other way around it would have performed similarly. Also, I don't really perceive this as a flop, I just think it's levelling out after a ridiculous high point, no band operates on a continuous upswing forever.

[ifmemoryserves]

American Idiot came out in the time when pop punk was cool. Now it's not.

On another note, American Idiot >>>>>>>> 21st Century Breakdown.

[Angie-Marie]

Plain and simple, the songs just didn't connect with audiences. I hated KYE when it first came out because I thought it was a lifeless, empty chant, and I think a lot of people felt that way too, and decided to judge this whole project as they did with that song.

I completely agree. The first time I heard KYE was the first time in all the years I've been a fan that I thought, "Oh, Green Day, no..." It made me less enthusiastic about hearing the rest of the album and if it got that kind of reaction out of somebody who has been a fan for many years, I can't imagine it won over many people who may have been hearing Green Day for the first time. Anytime anyone asked me what I thought of the album, the first words out of my mouth were always, "Know Your Enemy is not a good representation of the rest of the album!"

I don't think the overall single choices were completely bad, just mainly poorly timed. 21CB, 21 Guns, and EJN were all pretty obvious choices. But 21CB should have been the lead single, 21 Guns would have done better with a better lead-in single, and EJN should have had a much cooler video. KYE and LOTAG, on the other hand, were rather underwhelming single choices.

I also think the album might have done better if it had been released a little earlier while Bush was still in office. American Idiot came out at exactly the right time and people latched onto it because it captured the frustration and anger a lot of people were feeling at that time. But by the time 21CB came out, people weren't as pissed off anymore so it's not an album that really spoke to them the way American Idiot did.

[norcalgreendayfan]

I think no matter what Green Day would have done following American Idiot it probably wouldn't have done as well because when there is an album that garners as much attention as American Idiot did it often is the case will be hard to match that in the followup. The promotion by the label didn't help and the single selection was really subpar. The Video for 21st Century Breakdown was by far the best out of all the singles. I really think if they did a proper video for East Jesus Nowhere and chose Peacemaker and American Eulogy as singles they may have been able to do something special with them.

[ParadoxAndPlaid]

You shouldn't disagree with it. This is the world I live in. They know out of the gates how well it tests. There are surprises of course but there is a rigorous process of test listenings and evaluations.

Everyone in the music industry knew AI was gonna be huge long before the album hit stores.

Well, I still stand by what I've said, and I respect your ideas as well. It's the world we all live in.

[jello4president]

I think in the end this album was never going to be as big as American Idiot. AI was there Nevermind. It came out of nowhere and was so massively hyped. 21CB was an amazing album. But it was always going to be compared to AI.

No band ever succeeds with a follow up. Nirvana didn't...

[ParadoxAndPlaid]

I respect your opinion too, but no I mean I am a third party concert event producer and have been for a decade and a half so I am not speaking out of school (when I say 'its the world I live in'. I'll give you a good parallel to the movie industry. They decide what movies come out when based on pre-vizzing the movie and getting feedback from random samples that are almost alway dead on within a few percentage points (i.e. Almost all bad movies that barely made wide theatricals get released in late August. Worst time for movies). You only need take one statistics class to learn how real a small random sample is. So, to that end, I am telling you that promotions money from the label is directly related to these tests. The album is simply not as accepted as AI, although it has had great reception by all measures.

I know you are, you've reminded us all of your occupation quite often around the forum. My comment was a subtle way of hinting that using the phrase "This is the world I live in" is a really condescending way of phrasing it.

[Guest]

Who knows? Mostly, I think people are just fickle and their tastes change.

[Marsupial]

The album came out in a bad time. I think it would've done better if it were released a year or two earlier (granted, I understand it probably wasn't ready to come out at that time, but if there were less of a gap between AI and 21CB it would've made more sense to the public seeing as both albums have a similar concept theme). Then, there's the issue with MTV / VH1 / MTV2 not showing nearly as many music videos anymore. Back in 2005 with AI, I remember waking up in the morning and anxiously waiting to see if they'd play Boulevard of Broken Dreams on any of those three channels. Now, all I see is reality garbage--the music is gone. Also, I feel that 21CB should've had a bit more promotion for the album. KYE was a poor choice for their first single; it wasn't as enticing as American Idiot. Instead, I think that either EastJesus Nowhere or 21CB would have caught public attention better.

[Mar]

I completely agree. The first time I heard KYE was the first time in all the years I've been a fan that I thought, "Oh, Green Day, no..." It made me less enthusiastic about hearing the rest of the album and if it got that kind of reaction out of somebody who has been a fan for many years, I can't imagine it won over many people who may have been hearing Green Day for the first time. Anytime anyone asked me what I thought of the album, the first words out of my mouth were always, "Know Your Enemy is not a good representation of the rest of the album!"

I don't think the overall single choices were completely bad, just mainly poorly timed. 21CB, 21 Guns, and EJN were all pretty obvious choices. But 21CB should have been the lead single, 21 Guns would have done better with a better lead-in single, and EJN should have had a much cooler video. KYE and LOTAG, on the other hand, were rather underwhelming single choices.

I also think the album might have done better if it had been released a little earlier while Bush was still in office. American Idiot came out at exactly the right time and people latched onto it because it captured the frustration and anger a lot of people were feeling at that time. But by the time 21CB came out, people weren't as pissed off anymore so it's not an album that really spoke to them the way American Idiot did.

Totally agree about the singles!

Another thing that I think makes a difference: 21CB is an album that really thrives in a concert environment (hearing a big chunk of it live is what made me love it). Now, I'm not claiming to know concert/tour statistics or anything like that, but I wonder, did fewer people see the band in concert during this tour than did for the American Idiot tours? The economy sucks now, it was probably easier for people to afford concert tickets back in 2004-05 when AI was the tour vehicle. Now, I don't know if people who aren't major fans could justify or afford $50 a pop (the floor tickets, and this tour? WAY too high prices IMO).

[Marsupial]

The more I think about it, 21CB is the same as what Insomniac was to Dookie.

i think it's because american idiot was sort of a huge comeback from the not as successful warning. it introduced a new style to the fans and obtained new ones along the road from the buzz. people waited for something new and american idiot was like christmas in september. and 21st century breakdown was like an encore to american idiot for me, since it was the same style, but people were kinda expecting something like AI.

that still doesn't mean 21CB was a complete and utter failure, it pleased me to see that green day is still writing masterpieces.

Completely agreed with this. I'm getting way too into this topic, by the way! Anyhow, yeah. American Idiot was like the rebirth of Green Day. They're the same band, but they sort of changed to a more operatic, grown-up style.

[ParadoxAndPlaid]

How is it condescending? It's not meant that way at all. If I wanted to know something about the ocean, and I was having a discussion with someone and that person said "I'm a marine biologist", I would like to know that it's not just someone spouting off some thought but someone with a little more insight. It's not disrespect but be it in vfx or concert production and promotion IT IS the world I live in. Sorry if that sounds condescending but it's not. Condescending is if I did it in a way to insult you which I most certainly didn't.

Everyone keeps saying promotion promotion promotion, I am trying to lay down a little truth. You don't have to agree with me and my feelings won't be hurt if you don't. I respect your opinion, and anyone else's, even if it's wrong.

No, to condescend is to behave as if one person, or idea inferior to your own. Which you do; when you say silly little remarks like "it's the world I live in" and "even if it's wrong " etc. It's not so much insulting as it is irritating. It's not like you consciously choose to be condescending, that is not how it works, nobody sits down and thinks "HA! I'm gonna be condescending!" And It's not just in regards to my comment or this topic of debate, just in general. You can argue your point without all those little smug remarks and they would still be just as valid, and maybe even more compelling.

Anyway this is completely off topic. So I'm done.

[Punk-tastic32]

I think there were a lot or reasons 21CB didn't do as well. First is the timing. When AI came out, everybody was realizing just how deep of a crap pile we were in, and writing or listening to political songs was the "way to go" for expressing one's discontent with the government. With 21CB, everyone knows that the world is screwed up and, somehow, listening to rebellious songs just isn't a "cool thing" to do. For some reason, being different isn't popular. Now, being popular is listening to what everyone else does, and buying what everyone else does.

Another reason is, I guess you could say, hype. AI was the one that brought Green Day back into the spotlight after releasing so many albums, each less popular than the last (generally speaking). AI really brought Green Day back with a bang, saying "Fuck all you doubters, we still got it!" And I'm assuming, it must be pretty hard to build that type of anticipation again, if at all.

Lastly, is the content. This is very opinionated (as if the first parts weren't), but I like AI far more then 21CB. AI just has that epic, "listen to me, or die" kind of sound. It is very theatrical (explaining why it is doing well as a musical) and very engaging through out it's entirety. 21CB is kind of like AI's little brother, trying to copy its predecessor, while still being a little different. 21CB also lacks that 'Epicness" that AI had. It's more grown up (this is totally messing with my earlier analogy) and doesn't have as much of a fighting spirit as AI.

Well, that's my jumble of opinions, have fun deciphering it.

Sublime is another I wonder about.

My dad is really into Sublime, especially recently- and I'm getting a little interested too.

I agree, i think Sublime was struck down too early.

Now, all I see is reality garbage--the music is gone.

KYE was a poor choice for their first single; it wasn't as enticing as American Idiot. Instead, I think that either EastJesus Nowhere or 21CB would have caught public attention better.

Totally agree. 100% totally agree.

[greenbear]

I pretty much agree with what's already been said. To summerize:

Single Choice was bad and the way they were released. KYE should never have been the first single. OK maybe as a later one but def not the first. Its a decent song in the context of the album and sounds great live in concert, but did nothing to entice people into buying the album. Its like after so much hype and anticipation you eventually hear Green Day's first new material in 4 years and what do you get? KYE! Nothing new, nothing radical, nothing to get you excited about the content of the new album. Quite frankly a bit boring as a stand alone single. Radio listeners just thought "Is that it? That's not as good as good as American Idiot. Don't think I'll bother getting the album!" The video wasn't exactly ground-breaking either. I can't understand why they didn't release 21ST CB as the first single. Draws you into the album, you remember the title when you see the album and such a great video. Completely wasted really when it was sort of released later. EJN needed a really good video with a world-wide release. And whose idea was LOTAG? I think even the band don't think its that strong a track away from the album and that's why they don't play it live.

Timing of AI was critical. Spoke the truth forcefully when it mattered. Themes in 21st CB didn't grab listeners attention. Doesn't stir up emotions instantly in the same way.

21st CB is an album that grows on you. The more you listen to it you more you feel it. Most casual record buyers don't have that patience. They listen once, or twice or just the tracks they like but don't give it the time needed. AI was more or less instant. You were hooked on the first listen. But this album doesn't work that way. It needs many plays and rewards the listener in the end. The more I hear 21st CB the more I love it.

[musse]

The non-existent promotion was the main reason I think. At least in Finland, where I live, people didn't even know Green Day still exists when 21CB came out. Also, 2004 was a perfect year for a political album like AI, people were pissed off and wanted to listen to that kind of music. 21CB just... Came out and that's it.

And KYE as the 1st single, I'd really like to know whose idea that was. Because it wasn't a good one.

[Ally]

It was a good album but not as good as AI, and it wasn't promoted anywhere near enough. I mean when AI came out my town was covered in all things green day, whichever shop you walked in they would have something green day, whether it was t-shirts, pens, bags, all AI related stuff, cos i remember buying loads of different stuff, make up bags, lipstick cases, even MIRRORS with them on the back! But with 21stCB it was different, there was nothing, most i saw before the album release was an advert in Kerrang about the release and a t-shirt/badge set in HMV and that was it.

Even on the AI tour, it was all over our local newspaper about coach trips to the tour, even though i couldn't go that time, the papers were covered with it...this time...zilch, not even a mention that there was a tour let alone coach trips to it.

[Silverlight]

I agree with everything people have previously said. The singles were not a good choice (call me retarded, but I actually liked KYE, and I bought the album because of it and 21 Guns) but seriously, I didnt even know that EJN was released 'til I saw it on YouTube. And yes, the music is much more different and slower than AI, but so? And also, people these days listen to more pop, rap and other stuff that I dont even know how to explain or name.

Its not that its a bad album, its just, not as good, or not what people expected. And MTV basically not playing music anymore (thank god for MTV Classic in Australia) isnt helping either.

[parinaz]

Green Day can use this forum to make better situation for their next album by asking the fans such these questions

[Storer]

I just think people are past caring about Green Day. The gap between the two albums was too big, perhaps?

[Zero.]

Musically I feel 21CB is better but it just doesn't have the same impact as American Idiot. Also American Idiot was sort of the first of its kind, in its on way...

But yeah the promotion for 21CB was shit

[Marlon_GD]

In my opinion, two reasons;

- A very big gap in between

- It is very hard to overcome American Idiot... like most of you guys say; You cannot do better than the best you already achieved. You can hardly match that again, and 1/1.000.000 you'll be better. AI was so extremely good and well-received. It's hard to top that.

[pisquano]

American Idiot was "something to agree with" in an era which brought mainly bad things.

21st Century Breakdown is American Idiot II, with less ideas and worse songs ==> the bad copy of his predecessor.

Know Your Enemy was the first single, but it's clear that other songs would have done better.

I don't want to discuss the other single choices; to make a resumé, they have been unshareable.

It's also true that this is an awful time for the music industry. And people listened mainly to pop-punk/emo groups in the years closed to 2004.

Anyway, 21st Century Breakdown has sold 3,100,000 copies (985,000 in the US) and these are good numbers considering every point I treated before.

[GDM]

21st CB is an album that grows on you. The more you listen to it you more you feel it. Most casual record buyers don't have that patience. They listen once, or twice or just the tracks they like but don't give it the time needed. AI was more or less instant. You were hooked on the first listen. But this album doesn't work that way. It needs many plays and rewards the listener in the end. The more I hear 21st CB the more I love it.

I agree with this, when I first heard 21CB, it was really disappointed. To me it sounded like "American Idiot, Pt. 2" but the more I listened to it, I fell in love. And yes, a lot of casual fans aren't going to go back and listen to an album that they first hear if they don't like the sound whereas harder fans will give it another chance, like I did. Once I gave it more listening time, the more I realized it was a great and ambitious album for a band that was trying to push the limits of what they could do. I think that they accomplished the limits-pushing with the album, and while I think it was largely successful in a way, an album that is so different from others without good videos (I have only liked one video from this album, 21CB itself and all of the live concert videos to the songs), and stronger singles releases is going to suffer.

I think when Green Day backed down from releasing EJN... which was obviously single material, they wimped out a little bit, maybe they didn't want (or couldn't) to push a war when the album sales weren't doing exceptionally well. I can understand this. If the album was a huge success, they could have released anything that they wanted from the album (i.e., songs with cursing), Horseshoes and Handgrenades, EJN, maybe the completely, "what, this is Green Day??"-sound of Peacemaker, too. Instead, we've been getting the softer love songs, maybe because the record company has test-marketed the album to death, lol. I don't know.

Anyway, as Crock6000 said, the album was successful, just not as huge as we would have liked it to be. But I think after the perfection of American Idiot, it would have been difficult for them to make the follow-up, no matter what. Follow-ups to massive hits sometimes just don't pan out well, and does Green Day really have to be "hugely successful"? Why can't they just be successful and consistent? I would rather see them release consistently good material than reach for the proverbial stars for another mega-hit that may not come. Just put out music, boys, and let it rip.

One of the big disappointments of 21CB that I feel, though, is that there is not enough of Mike's bass in the album, and this makes me sad. A lot of the tunes just seem like Vig produced Mike out of the band, you can barely hear his licks. I hope this rectifies itself in any new stuff.

[Tiffx]

AI was a shock to most people. It was Green Day reinventing themselves and their sound, most people latched onto that. In a way it was easier for AI in 04/05 because the record coincided with the political climate at the time.

21CB hasn't managed to capture people in the same way AI had. Maybe that's because rock music isn't considered popular anymore, but I think it's more to do with the fact that 21CB was expected. I'm not saying 21CB is boring and predictable, far from it. It's the kind of record you need to sit down and listen to in its entirety to really appreciate it and that's what I love about it. It just lacks the same shock value AI had and it's been released at a time when other styles of music are dominating the mainstream.

[justcause]

But In my opinion; I'm happy with how things have gone for 21st century breakdown. I like it better this way. It is not completely faded into obscurity, but it's not an obnoxious spectacle either. I didn't like how radios would overplay Holiday and Boulevard of Broken Dreams, I did not like the impractical merchandise they sold at every store in the mall, and I especially did not like the bandwagon 'fans' that have disappered now that it's 'not cool' to like Green Day. I think that this album is a time of reckoning, the people who love the music, and love the band are all still here. The music is just as good as it has always been, and the guys are happy with what they are doing. The fans are happy, the band is too. That is all that matters to me.

I'm happy with it too. I felt from the beginning that this was the most low-key promotion of a high-profile comeback possible - it had that underground feel to it. I loved how the graffiti adverts would just materialize on random walls, because it was more of a 'living art' thing and it evoked a different response than a printed poster plastered up. One place, it provoked people to graffiti right back at it - yeah, with their frank opinion of Green Day, lol!! - another, people just wrote their own stuff onto it, and in the third, it was completely untouched and epic and stark.

I think it's funny that we have stuff like 'all the reviews compared it to AI', and here we are, comparing it to AI. I don't buy into that - if you wanna do sales, I think it's done pretty ok, and in terms of cultural impact, I think it's a slow burner - this will be the one where people go 'why wasn't this appreciated?', and love it all the more because it will become their own personal discovery.

21CB is huge and sprawling - so much so that I appreciated the singles for the simple reason of bringing particular songs into focus and letting me appreciate them for how idiosyncratic and particular and totally Green Day they are. 21CB is an honest record that has the courage to say 'I don't know what to think right now, I feel confused and lost and uncertain', and the change in terms of Green Day's expression is that these feelings aren't dressed up to sound aggressive or jokey, they're presented as what they are. I think this is an important album for many reasons, one of them being the experimentation in it - that sets the seed for any amount of things, and whether or not it feeds directly into how the next album will be, it takes everything up a level.