Cigarettes & Valentines — the one and only thread

[Dysfunco]

The release of American Idiot 20th Anniversary has spawned tons of new Cigarettes & Valentines speculation, and since it's (atleast to some of us) always is a very fun and interesting subject I feel it would be great to have a whole thread dedicated to it. That way people who think it's pointless nonsense can easily stay away from it, too.

My gripe with Reddit and similar styled forums is that the discussion get so spread out and it's very hard to get a good overview what's been said in the matter. Also alot of interesting threads are archived and can therefore not be continued with new posts.

To contribute, I can begin with includng a post I recently made in reponse to people still thinking End of the World would be "Roshambo" (The Network). Which is not what I personally believe (in that case the "Edge of the World" part from Forever Now would more likely to me, but that's a entirely different discussion). But I added some additional thoughts beyond this.

I'm also including the now "legendary" John Rocker B-side disc photo as it ended up being a vital part of the Cigarettes & Valentines legacy - so to speak.

---

(my post in response to End of the World/Roshambo speculation:)

I have lot of theories about songs myself, that many very openly have discarded (sometimes perhaps rightfully so, other times without reasonable basis) -- but this particular one I can't really understand why so many people would believe.

Just take a look at the B-Side CD on the photo above. The date is clear, it's from july 2004.

Roshambo was officially released almost a year (!) prior - 9 months to be exacty) as a The Network song. In september 2003.

Since that was what they chose to do with the song, why would they send the supposed Green Day version of it for mastering nearly a year later? Does it seem likely at all it would be released anytime soon?

While this is true, the only thing that contradicts my own reasoning here - is that "Lately (One More Year), which most of us believe is a further developed version of Just Another Year, is on this B-side compilation too. And yeah, obviously that part actually made it to the final American Idiot album, as an intro for Homecoming. But perhaps they saw that as a different thing and would've been willing to release it as such, down the line.

But then, at the other hand - if that song made it unto this B-side disc, why not Lowlife or Everyone's Breaking Down?

Then one could also begin to wonder... Is this photo even legit or just some trolling by John Roecker, backed up by his friend in the band? Isn't it suspicious that he soon after deleted it? He knows Green Day, wouldn't he ask them beforehand for their approval? If so, we'd obviously have to reconsider everything we've seen here...

Rock Against Bush Vol 2, which Favorite Son is on, was released just a few weeks after that date on the John Roecker photo. Doesn't that seem a bit... tight, time wise? Did they wait for Green Day to deliver the very last song that was supposed to be on the record, and then started to print it? As I said - it sounds very tight, doesn't it?

(unless it's a different master, there'a specific guy mentioned in the Rock Against Bush Vol 02 CD credits shared on discogs. perhaps he mastered the whole compilation, obviously that's usually the case. But is there any audible difference between the version on that album and the one on Japanese American Idiot/21 Guns single?)

It's perhaps even a little bit weird that it says "Japanese Bonus" on it too. Why would that be of any importance for the masterer? To make it sound closer to the other American Songs? Well, perhaps. But yeah, I don't know exactly what to think of it all.

--

With that out of the way - let your Cigarettes & Valentines findings, insights and pure speculation go wild! Obviously theories that's serious, well thought out and actually makes sense especially appreciated. 

 

Edited Sunday at 11:46 AM by Dysfunco

[jengd]

I'm not really into this huge desire to talk about/get C&V but I will add what Rob Cavallo writes in the AI 20 booklet.  "So, I got together with the band and they tole me they had written an entire album's worth of material. Wow! Awesome! But there was a problem.  The guys were sounding, for whatever reason, just a little bit rusty.  The music was good but was it really their best? I took it to my boss (the prescient Tom Whaley .  He agreed with me.  He said "let's meet with the band".  A few days later in the Warner Bros executive conference room, Tom says to me and the guys " we appreciate what you guys have gone through and appreciate this new album.  And while we are prepared to release it, we are not prepared to give it the big push (meaning marketing $) because we don't believe this is the best work you are capable of".  BOOM!  He was so brutally direct!  I think I was sweating profusely.  Billie looked directly at me and asked "is that what you think too?" "Yes I said, nodding my affirmation.  Billie said "ok, let me think about this and process it, and we'll get back to you."  Two days later, we were all back in the same conference room.  Billie starts "So I';ve been thinking about what you guys said last time....and I think you're right.  We want to make out best record and we want you guys to like it and to give it the big push.  And we are willing to do what it takes to make that happen.  The question is:  Tom, are you willing to do it also?"  Tom said "sure, what do you need?"   

The rest is about Rob going to work with them Monday to Friday in Berkeley.

[nowshesgone]

i have a couple of tangents i would like to contribute to the thread
Im honestly not convinced Edge of the world is end of the world (i still do think that it at the very least takes some elements from Roshambo, and also its not like they could have used End of the World as more "evidence" of the network "stealing" from green day)
I also saw someone speculate on reddit that End Of The World is an REM Cover (which would make it the second cover considered as an American Idiot B-side alongside what is likely the nimrod sessions version of Nineteenth Nervous Breakdown)
Waste Away is probably a sequel song to at the very least Android and No One Knows and is also probably not Oh Love (or at the very least not it fully)
Too Young and Sleepyhead could have been revisited around the 21CB tour, but i also have my doubts that they were actually revisited (especially sleepyhead if parts of it did end up becoming Give Me Novacaine)
 

[PleasedToMeetMe]

4 hours ago, jengd said:

I'm not really into this huge desire to talk about/get C&V but I will add what Rob Cavallo writes in the AI 20 booklet.  "So, I got together with the band and they tole me they had written an entire album's worth of material. Wow! Awesome! But there was a problem.  The guys were sounding, for whatever reason, just a little bit rusty.  The music was good but was it really their best? I took it to my boss (the prescient Tom Whaley .  He agreed with me.  He said "let's meet with the band".  A few days later in the Warner Bros executive conference room, Tom says to me and the guys " we appreciate what you guys have gone through and appreciate this new album.  And while we are prepared to release it, we are not prepared to give it the big push (meaning marketing $) because we don't believe this is the best work you are capable of".  BOOM!  He was so brutally direct!  I think I was sweating profusely.  Billie looked directly at me and asked "is that what you think too?" "Yes I said, nodding my affirmation.  Billie said "ok, let me think about this and process it, and we'll get back to you."  Two days later, we were all back in the same conference room.  Billie starts "So I';ve been thinking about what you guys said last time....and I think you're right.  We want to make out best record and we want you guys to like it and to give it the big push.  And we are willing to do what it takes to make that happen.  The question is:  Tom, are you willing to do it also?"  Tom said "sure, what do you need?"   

The rest is about Rob going to work with them Monday to Friday in Berkeley.

Then in the documentary they go back to the story about it being stolen. Dammit guys, we’re not that dumb 😂

[Dysfunco]

21 hours ago, jengd said:

I'm not really into this huge desire to talk about/get C&V but I will add what Rob Cavallo writes in the AI 20 booklet.  "So, I got together with the band and they tole me they had written an entire album's worth of material. Wow! Awesome! But there was a problem.  The guys were sounding, for whatever reason, just a little bit rusty.  The music was good but was it really their best? I took it to my boss (the prescient Tom Whaley .  He agreed with me.  He said "let's meet with the band".  A few days later in the Warner Bros executive conference room, Tom says to me and the guys " we appreciate what you guys have gone through and appreciate this new album.  And while we are prepared to release it, we are not prepared to give it the big push (meaning marketing $) because we don't believe this is the best work you are capable of".  BOOM!  He was so brutally direct!  I think I was sweating profusely.  Billie looked directly at me and asked "is that what you think too?" "Yes I said, nodding my affirmation.  Billie said "ok, let me think about this and process it, and we'll get back to you."  Two days later, we were all back in the same conference room.  Billie starts "So I';ve been thinking about what you guys said last time....and I think you're right.  We want to make out best record and we want you guys to like it and to give it the big push.  And we are willing to do what it takes to make that happen.  The question is:  Tom, are you willing to do it also?"  Tom said "sure, what do you need?"   

The rest is about Rob going to work with them Monday to Friday in Berkeley.

Well, yeah, since this pretty much seem to sum it up what actually happened, it's appears to be more of a little "nod" to the fans and the "stolen tapes" story to include that "As legend has it, the tapes mysteriously disappeared from the studio" bit that I saw someone else share a photo of.

If they sticked to the story in the documentary, perhaps that was shot before it was decided what they'd write in the included book on matter?

Robs explanation kind of puts things in a new light I mean, now we know it's more like Billie comes in with songs for the next album and to his dissapointment getting this rather underwhelming response, in opposite to thinking the material is weak himself and trying to get approval to delay it och go in a different direction. Perhaps the "stolen tapes" and "it was a blessing in disguise" thing came about as it felt like they "owned the situation" more that way. Who knows, just speculation.

The only other theory I can think of is that it actually DID disappear after the meeting. But rather than stolen or disappearing without the band knowing, it was a delibirate - sort of "punky" - move by Billie because he got so pissed. Since the material got "dissed", he deleted it so the label would't have access to it, and only kept either demos, a CD, or a hard drive of C&V somewhere himself. 

Edited Sunday at 12:13 PM by Dysfunco

[jengd]

I think your suggestion that Billie “disappeared” the tapes could well be spot on.  It would be really tough for an artist to hear that a whole album they wrote was below par and well done to the whole band for having the guts to start again, for it turn out to be AI is nothing short of amazing.  
 When Billie says in the doc that the tapes were stolen, he does look, fairly sheepish 😂

[bastard of young]

I like the idea that Billie Joe scrapped the album and came up with the "they were stolen" excuse, and then proceeded to come up with the final album just to spite Tom Whalley and Rob for calling the album mid. lol

[That Dude]

I believe that from 2000-2003, Green Day were writing and recording nearly nonstop in panic mode, thinking that the Green Day brand was finished.  They had mined all they could within those confines and they were trying anything and everything to find the magic again.  C&G, Money Money 2020, American Idiot and probably several more.   All of it was in service of American Idiot.   1972 was similiar building block to get to Saviors.    It's also possible this is how Green Day music all the time, not just when they've reached  breaking point.   

[nowshesgone]

i honestly wonder how the tracks that we havent heard would factor into C&V's sound being closer to Insomniac, Dookie and Kerplunk

[Dysfunco]

20 hours ago, nowshesgone said:

i honestly wonder how the tracks that we havent heard would factor into C&V's sound being closer to Insomniac, Dookie and Kerplunk

Maybe because it never was to begin with. In American Idiot 20th Anniversary Edition they describe it as being a "power pop" album. So it would probably have been more of a follow up to Warning in that sense.

However, since many of us used to think "Lights Out" and other rockier tracks might have derived from C&V, it is a bit confusing to understand the timeline and how everything fits together. I agree with that.

They did, like you said, refer to C&V as a punkier type of album earlier. Perhaps there were different phazes, or the more rockier/punker things started to take shape after they scrapped whatever they played for the label. And then, eventually rather ended up with something in-between where some of the original C&V songs was brough back again, with some tweaks (Novacaine could be such as song, perhaps.). Or some of the punkier tracks even pre-dates what we think of as C&V.

Edited Monday at 02:58 PM by Dysfunco

[nowshesgone]

23 minutes ago, Dysfunco said:

Maybe cause it never was to begin with. In American Idiot 20th Anniversary Edition they describe it as being a "power pop" album. So it would probably have been more of a follow up to Warning in that sense.

However, since many of us used to think "Lights Out" and other rockier tracks might have derived C&V, it is a bit confusing to understand the timeline and how everything fits together. I agree wih that.

They did statements like that you just said, referring to C&V as a punkier type of album. Perhaps there were different phazes, or the more rockier/punker things started to take shape after they scrapped whatever they played for the label. And then, eventually rather ended up with something in-between where some of the original C&V songs was brough back again, with some tweaks (Novacaine could be such as song, perhaps.).

NGL knowing the power pop aspect now thanks to the booket in AI20 makes me wonder if maybe it would be half & half or "Power Punk" (i could see songs like Lights Out, Walk Away and title track fitting this description)

[Insomniac186]

The 2002-2003 era was definitely a strange era for the band, it's obvious that they were throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. The material that has been released from that era is all over the place. Plus, didn't they record a Christmas album and a hip-hop album during that time (not as a serious project but as a joke)?

Also if you look at most of the credits for the AI B-sides, Rob Cavallo's name is nowhere to be seen (except Favorite Son) and some songs were worked on by a member of the Rock Mafia production team. How much were the Rock Mafia involved during this era and were they involved in the production of C&V?

 

Unless more material gets released from this era there is only so much we'll ever know. For whatever reason, the band has chosen to keep everything else in the vault. There is so much material in the vault from this era it's likely the band has harvested a lot of it for new material so they probably feel there's no point anyway. I'd be happy with the C&V title track getting released since there is no reason it shouldn't given we have a live version.

 

 

[Dysfunco]

20 hours ago, nowshesgone said:

NGL knowing the power pop aspect now thanks to the booket in AI20 makes me wonder if maybe it would be half & half or "Power Punk" (i could see songs like Lights Out, Walk Away and title track fitting this description)

I've thought about this earlier too. That it perhaps already was a concept album of sorts (just not an opera) at an early stage, with some kind of "Light and dark" theme to it -- hence the title Cigarettes & Valentine with the former standing for the dark/bad side and the latter for the light/good. Although it most certainly has nothing to do with this, there's almost a comical amount of songs having either "cigarettes" or "valentines" in the lyrics in one form or another. Or simply just fitting the idea.

[Rumpelstiltskin2000]

Talking about C&V I found this in a box that hadn't been unpacked for 13 years the other day

[Saviour]

We know the band love to recycle ideas. Let's face it, C&V stuff would be prime AI 20th Anniversary fodder to boost sales numbers but since we've definitely heard most of C&V in some guise or another, they've never bothered to put it out.

The master tapes story is complete and utter nonsense and I can't believe people are still speculating about it. They'll absolutely still have the session files. The "stolen" thing was either 1: A throwaway comment in an interview that grew legs or 2: a calculated bit of marketing.

They've all but confirmed what us Occam's Razor fans have long since thought: C&V was considered poor, so they went back to the drawing board. During this process they wrote the Homecoming demo and the rest is history. 

[Lenny]

On 10/27/2024 at 3:07 PM, Dysfunco said:

Maybe because it never was to begin with. In American Idiot 20th Anniversary Edition they describe it as being a "power pop" album. So it would probably have been more of a follow up to Warning in that sense.

However, since many of us used to think "Lights Out" and other rockier tracks might have derived from C&V, it is a bit confusing to understand the timeline and how everything fits together. I agree with that.

They did, like you said, refer to C&V as a punkier type of album earlier. Perhaps there were different phazes, or the more rockier/punker things started to take shape after they scrapped whatever they played for the label. And then, eventually rather ended up with something in-between where some of the original C&V songs was brough back again, with some tweaks (Novacaine could be such as song, perhaps.). Or some of the punkier tracks even pre-dates what we think of as C&V.

I think it would be similar to what we heard from the trilogy except Green Day in their prime.

We heard C&V and honestly it sounds like something that would sit between Loss of Control and Angel Blue on Uno.

It’s hard to tell based off of the booklet and the documentary whether the reference to C&V is to close the chapter or keep our hopes up.

I would like to hear it regardless if it ended up being reworked into other songs. It’s the actual follow up to Warning that led to AI. It plays a part in their legacy.

[Jon Benjamin]

1 hour ago, Lenny said:

It’s the actual follow up to Warning that led to AI. It plays a part in their legacy.

Would AI still be their 7th studio album if they released C&V as a whole or?

[frankoz]

I got a strong feeling C&V was never lost, but rather reworked into American Idiot. Probably they were not satisfied with the outcome, those Warning-esque "Demos" seem to be fully produced songs, even if rather b-side-ish, perhaps self-produced but unsatisfied themselves.  So then they called in Cavallo to help out.

My other (additional) theory is, "C&V" was American Idiot all along, and they made up the CV name after they had reworked their idea of this rock opera that was yet too loose and going nowhere. So then they called in Rob Cavallo to help out and discover new territories of song structure and soundwise as well.

So I assume most of AI's songs had existed already, even American Idiot, . Did they have some pressure with the time schedule maybe and looking for an excuse for the record label? The other Demos of the later well known songs have very much a Warning sound, an album they had produced themselves. Could be American Idiot had also always been the album's opener and name.

 

 

[Lenny]

4 hours ago, Jon Benjamin said:

Would AI still be their 7th studio album if they released C&V as a whole or?

Yeah cause at this point any C&V release would probably be considered a comp or just a demos special release. 

1 hour ago, frankoz said:

I got a strong feeling C&V was never lost, but rather reworked into American Idiot. Probably they were not satisfied with the outcome, those Warning-esque "Demos" seem to be fully produced songs, even if rather b-side-ish, perhaps self-produced but unsatisfied themselves.  So then they called in Cavallo to help out.

My other (additional) theory is, "C&V" was American Idiot all along, and they made up the CV name after they had reworked their idea of this rock opera that was yet too loose and going nowhere. So then they called in Rob Cavallo to help out and discover new territories of song structure and soundwise as well.

So I assume most of AI's songs had existed already, even American Idiot, . Did they have some pressure with the time schedule maybe and looking for an excuse for the record label? The other Demos of the later well known songs have very much a Warning sound, an album they had produced themselves. Could be American Idiot had also always been the album's opener and name.

 

 

I think the better parts of C&V were likely worked into AI and of course following releases. 

[nowshesgone]

4 hours ago, Jon Benjamin said:

Would AI still be their 7th studio album if they released C&V as a whole or?

i think if C&V did get released as apart of either the Warning Box (they need to boost those sales!!!) or on its own as C&V "25" i would see it the same way i see Smile by the Beach Boys being released before their "final" studio album instead of being a release in between Pet Sounds and Wild Honey (not counting Smiley Smile obviously) or for a better comparison, Songs from the Black Hole by Weezer being released with or for Pinkerton 30th

[Mega Man]

14 hours ago, Saviour said:

We know the band love to recycle ideas. Let's face it, C&V stuff would be prime AI 20th Anniversary fodder to boost sales numbers but since we've definitely heard most of C&V in some guise or another, they've never bothered to put it out.

This I disagree with, seeing as a lot of demos from the deluxe editions already have been very close to the final recordings. Stuff was recycled, but not without being reworked significantly. Even if every single song was already released in an indistinguishably different mix, it would still all get released as "THE LONG LOST ALBUM" someday.

I think the mystique of it all makes the album much more valuable in the long run than had it been released initially as a so-so new Green Day album. I think it's going to be released eventually, but I'm just not sure of what would warrant the occasion. Might just come out of nowhere and get a huge marketing push.

1 hour ago, nowshesgone said:

i think if C&V did get released as apart of either the Warning Box (they need to boost those sales!!!) or on its own as C&V "25" i would see it the same way i see Smile by the Beach Boys being released before their "final" studio album instead of being a release in between Pet Sounds and Wild Honey (not counting Smiley Smile obviously) or for a better comparison, Songs from the Black Hole by Weezer being released with or for Pinkerton 30th

One of the "lost" albums that I'm most familiar with is Static Age by the Misfits. That was also initially released as part of a larger boxset, and then only a few years later got its own dedicated release. Nowadays, most fans seem to forget it was a lost album for two decades and just consider it their debut album.

[Insomniac186]

12 hours ago, Mega Man said:

This I disagree with, seeing as a lot of demos from the deluxe editions already have been very close to the final recordings. Stuff was recycled, but not without being reworked significantly. Even if every single song was already released in an indistinguishably different mix, it would still all get released as "THE LONG LOST ALBUM" someday.

I think the mystique of it all makes the album much more valuable in the long run than had it been released initially as a so-so new Green Day album. I think it's going to be released eventually, but I'm just not sure of what would warrant the occasion. Might just come out of nowhere and get a huge marketing push.

One of the "lost" albums that I'm most familiar with is Static Age by the Misfits. That was also initially released as part of a larger boxset, and then only a few years later got its own dedicated release. Nowadays, most fans seem to forget it was a lost album for two decades and just consider it their debut album.

Another famous "lost" album is Weezer's "Songs From The Black Hole". Some of the material was recycled for Pinkerton, and most of the other material has been released by peacemeal over the years despite fans wanting a full album, but multiple songs were never officially recorded other than demos.

 

Since both bands are coincidentally managed by Crush, it appears that both Crush and their respective record labels don't have either band under any sort of pressure to release comprehensive versions of the lost albums.

[nowshesgone]

10 hours ago, Insomniac186 said:

Another famous "lost" album is Weezer's "Songs From The Black Hole". Some of the material was recycled for Pinkerton, and most of the other material has been released by peacemeal over the years despite fans wanting a full album, but multiple songs were never officially recorded other than demos.

 

Since both bands are coincidentally managed by Crush, it appears that both Crush and their respective record labels don't have either band under any sort of pressure to release comprehensive versions of the lost albums.

The main difference between SFTBH and C&V (this also applies to Static Age, the OTHER 2 "lost weezer albums and smile) is that songs from the black hole has a tracklist that it could go off of for Pinkerton 30th and we basically have every track in someform, demo or full band, compared to C&V only having 2 or 3 (depending on when lights out was recorded) songs that are confirmed/recorded around this time

Edited 2 hours ago by nowshesgone
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