Covid/vaccine rules at shows

[Cunt]

7 minutes ago, Billie Joes Eyelids said:

"Your bias and  unwillingness to actually evaluate the facts proves that you know nothing"

Know nothing about what? Epidemiology and statistics? Are those your strong suits? We'd love to hear what you know about these topics that none of the experts are aware of.

The statistics are not supportive of the bullshit “You don’t have to thank me, I’m wearing a mask for you not for me because I want to make a difference” narrative. In fact they aren’t supportive of lockdowns or social distancing. There was a study that was conducted in Sweden where people did wear mask and people didn’t wear mask. There was a one percent difference in how many people got Covid out of both groups. I’m gonna say this and I’m done. The best way to combat the virus is not masks, social distancing, or lockdowns. It’s getting vaccinated because vaccines have been effective. You here everybody bitching about breakthrough cases. You know how many breakthrough  cases of delta variant there have been? Less than a percent, none of which resulted in death.  I’ll take that stat over stats on masks and social distancing. 

[Billie Joes Eyelids]

30 minutes ago, Cunt said:

The statistics are not supportive of the bullshit “You don’t have to thank me, I’m wearing a mask for you not for me because I want to make a difference” narrative. In fact they aren’t supportive of lockdowns or social distancing. There was a study that was conducted in Sweden where people did wear mask and people didn’t wear mask. There was a one percent difference in how many people got Covid out of both groups. I’m gonna say this and I’m done. The best way to combat the virus is not masks, social distancing, or lockdowns. It’s getting vaccinated because vaccines have been effective. You here everybody bitching about breakthrough cases. You know how many breakthrough  cases of delta variant there have been? Less than a percent, none of which resulted in death.  I’ll take that stat over stats on masks and social distancing. 

We're in agreement on vaccines. But there is overwhelming agreement in the scientific community that masks HELP mitigate the spread of virus. There are always going to be outlier studies that people try to point to, always happens with misinformation. But I've got an anecdotal question for you. Flu and colds were down during the period of mandatory masking in 2020/21. Not just a little bit. It was a fraction of what we usually see. I'm a nurse, and in my setting we saw 0 cases of flu, which has never happened in my entire career. This was before vaccines were available. These are viral illnesses, just like COVID. If masks don't work, how would this be possible? It was nationwide, and the only variables were  mass use of masks and social distancing, compared to any other year in recent history.

Also if masks don't work, why do nurses and doctors bother wearing them when treating patients who are in isolation with a communicable disease? Do you think anyone would dare go in into that room without a mask? This is basic. 

[Cunt]

1 hour ago, Billie Joes Eyelids said:

We're in agreement on vaccines. But there is overwhelming agreement in the scientific community that masks HELP mitigate the spread of virus. There are always going to be outlier studies that people try to point to, always happens with misinformation. But I've got an anecdotal question for you. Flu and colds were down during the period of mandatory masking in 2020/21. Not just a little bit. It was a fraction of what we usually see. I'm a nurse, and in my setting we saw 0 cases of flu, which has never happened in my entire career. This was before vaccines were available. These are viral illnesses, just like COVID. If masks don't work, how would this be possible? It was nationwide, and the only variables were  mass use of masks and social distancing, compared to any other year in recent history.

Also if masks don't work, why do nurses and doctors bother wearing them when treating patients who are in isolation with a communicable disease? Do you think anyone would dare go in into that room without a mask? This is basic. 

And this is basic. The stats don’t support the claim that masks prevent Covid infections. And if your a nurse you know that you wear the mask to prevent not small but large droplets from you or patients to fall on your or them. If your cutting iron metal the particles can slip through your mask and be inhaled. If that can happen what the hell do you think Covid pathogens are gonna do? That’s great that flu cases were low but Covid cases were still high so it doesn’t change anything. 

Interesting so that we went from 40 million flu cases to like 1200 cases and nobody questions it but whatever…

[GuitarPunk94]

 

watch this, if you think masks are useless / dont help / "traumatize your kids", then you are just stupid imo, no insult but thats a fact then

[Billie Joes Eyelids]

9 hours ago, Cunt said:

And this is basic. The stats don’t support the claim that masks prevent Covid infections. And if your a nurse you know that you wear the mask to prevent not small but large droplets from you or patients to fall on your or them. If your cutting iron metal the particles can slip through your mask and be inhaled. If that can happen what the hell do you think Covid pathogens are gonna do? That’s great that flu cases were low but Covid cases were still high so it doesn’t change anything. 

Interesting so that we went from 40 million flu cases to like 1200 cases and nobody questions it but whatever…

Honestly. Where are you getting these "stats"?

[Cunt]

1 hour ago, Billie Joes Eyelids said:

Honestly. Where are you getting these "stats"?

Or excuse me it was 2000 flu cases not 1200. 
You can look up these stats. They are available on many websites and news articles. 

2 hours ago, GuitarPunk94 said:

 

watch this, if you think masks are useless / dont help / "traumatize your kids", then you are just stupid imo, no insult but thats a fact then

They do a fantastic job at stopping large droplets but not small droplets. 

[Billie Joes Eyelids]

2 hours ago, Cunt said:

Or excuse me it was 2000 flu cases not 1200. 
You can look up these stats. They are available on many websites and news articles. 

They do a fantastic job at stopping large droplets but not small droplets. 

You're saying the size of droplets vary? When I sneeze, whether I have bacterial pneumonia or a virus, the size of the droplets I spew are the same. 

What you're not understanding is viral load. The only masks that give almost definitive protection to self and others are N95 which are only for medical use. Yes, with cloth masks if you are for instance in a crowded room with people who have COVID and you have a cloth mask on, some viral particles will get through the mask. But it will decrease significantly the number that do. Hence decreased viral load. Decreased viral load lessens the chance of having symptomatic disease, and lessens symptom severity if you do have COVID. Which in term decreases spread, because the less symptomatic you are the less you will spread it  That's how it works, and that is what the actual data shows. 

[MillenniumFan]

22 hours ago, Joe. said:

I'm not telling anyone what to be comfortable with, I wear a mask in public and at work for 8 hours a day, but you're standing in a sweaty pit crammed in like sardines and you're going to be jumping about and crashing in to others. I respect the decision to wear a mask in that environment, I know somethings better than nothing, but it kinda seems like trying to put a wildfire out with a water pistol in terms of effectiveness.

That's not to say don't do it, not to say masks don't work, but you've got to be realistic.

THIS 

As others have pointed out, the science behind masks is very clear and I always thought it would appear intuitive to people as well, but boy was I wrong. That said, as you mention, mandating masks for everyone in the pit, if nothing else, probably is not an effective policy (unlike mandatory masks at work, public transport etc). It reminds me of the mask mandates during the Euro 2020, where so many ignored it (instead wearing their masks deliberately incorrectly or under the chin) and those were people who technically had seats. Sure, one could point out that better rule enforcement might help, but the effect of masks probably will be limited if people are profusely sweating and jumping around in the pit. We know that when masks get wet they become somewhat less effective, not to mention if people ignore the rules and remove their masks or wear them incorrectly, rendering them useless also. So, I think mass-testing (in some cases several times), proof of vaccination and sectioned off “bubbles” in concert venues for easier contact-tracing should be the best way to curb the spread. If necessary mandate masks as well, but only if all else fails or the general situation is dire, although in that case downsizing or cancelling the event may be a more reasonable course of action.

[Billie Joes Eyelids]

Just now, MillenniumFan said:

THIS 

As others have pointed out, the science behind masks is very clear, but I always thought it would appear intuitive to people, but boy was I wrong. That said, as you say, mandating masks for everyone in the pit, if nothing else, is not an effective policy. It reminds me of the mask mandate during the Euro 2020, where so many ignored it and that was people who had seats. Sure you could point out that better enforcement would help, but the affect of masks probably will be limited if people are profusely sweating and jumping around. We know that when masks get wet they become somewhat less effective. So, I think mass-testing (in some cases several times), proof of vaccination and sectioned off “bubbles” in the venue for easier contact tracing should be the best way to curb the spread in mass gatherings. Possibly mandate masks as well, but only if all else fails or the general situation is dire, but downsizing or cancelling the event is still not reasonable.

I agree with this too. I was thinking I would like to see a mask mandate for people at shows in areas with high positivity but I've kind of changed my mind. The vaccine is available to anyone who wants it. If you go to a show unvaccinated and with no mask and get a whopping dose of Delta variant and end up on a ventilator, that's on you. At least as a vaccinated person at a show with a mask, I know the chances of me getting severe illness is miniscule. 

[MillenniumFan]

16 minutes ago, Billie Joes Eyelids said:

I agree with this too. I was thinking I would like to see a mask mandate for people at shows in areas with high positivity but I've kind of changed my mind. The vaccine is available to anyone who wants it. If you go to a show unvaccinated and with no mask and get a whopping dose of Delta variant and end up on a ventilator, that's on you. At least as a vaccinated person at a show with a mask, I know the chances of me getting severe illness is miniscule. 

I mean, run-of-the-mill masks protect others, but not yourself, which is why everyone has to wear one for them to work. The vaccine does protect the individual that is vaccinated, but if cases are very high, then the chance of catching the disease and dying is higher also, even for vaccinated people. The vaccines are effective, but they’re not foolproof. That’s why imo we can’t just parrot B. Johnson’s line of “personal responsibility”, because people have a responsibility to protect others and if you go to a show unvaccinated and/or untested, you’re definitely putting others at risk. 

[pacejunkie punk]

1 hour ago, Billie Joes Eyelids said:

I agree with this too. I was thinking I would like to see a mask mandate for people at shows in areas with high positivity but I've kind of changed my mind. The vaccine is available to anyone who wants it. If you go to a show unvaccinated and with no mask and get a whopping dose of Delta variant and end up on a ventilator, that's on you. At least as a vaccinated person at a show with a mask, I know the chances of me getting severe illness is miniscule. 

Agree. You can only do so much for people who refuse to take care of themselves. At some point you have to throw up your hands and say it’s enough. I’ve seen tweet threads from ICU nurses saying they’ve had it, they shouldn’t be asked to continue to do this now that there’s a vaccine. Nearly all unvaxxed in the hospitals. There’s no excuse. 

[Billie Joes Eyelids]

48 minutes ago, MillenniumFan said:

I mean, run-of-the-mill masks protect others, but not yourself, which is why everyone has to wear one for them to work. The vaccine does protect the individual that is vaccinated, but if cases are very high, then the chance of catching the disease and dying is higher also, even for vaccinated people. The vaccines are effective, but they’re not foolproof. That’s why imo we can’t just parrot B. Johnson’s line of “personal responsibility”, because people have a responsibility to protect others and if you go to a show unvaccinated and/or untested, you’re definitely putting others at risk. 

As of a few months ago, the CDC changed their information on masks to say that they decrease the viral load for both people who wear the masks and people around them. So they do in fact provide some personal protection, based on recent studies. And again, decreases your viral load. Can you still get the Delta variant in the pit? Absolutely. But the chances of SEVERE illness in a vaccinated otherwise healthy person is so low that you might as well worry about being struck by lightning. So for the vaccinated, it's really the same risk as with any show with people who are shedding cold and flu viruses. It's also been way overstated as far as how much vaccinated people can spread the virus. It's very low compared to the unvaccinated. It just all has to be put in perspective. So I think vaccinated people just need to realize they could get sick, but not terribly sick. Unvaccinated people are taking a much bigger risk. 

 

[MillenniumFan]

2 minutes ago, Billie Joes Eyelids said:

As of a few months ago, the CDC changed their information on masks to say that they decrease the viral load for both people who wear the masks and people around them. 

 

Ok, I wasn’t aware of that. I know some mask types (like FFP2/FFP3 etc.) definitely protect the wearer more than standard surgical masks, but nonetheless there’s something disconcerting about unvaccinated and unmasked people coughing in your face, even if you yourself are fully vaccinated and wearing a mask…

[Guest]

Can someone explain for me why we are having this big mask debate? There are no mask requirements at these shows. Yes, masks, especially higher quality ones, definitely reduce transmission and provide some protection to both the wearer and those around them, but they are nowhere near as effective as vaccines. That's why we also had social distancing when all we had was masks and no vaccines. Being in a mosh pit unvaccinated is taking a huge risk, mask or not, especially now with this Delta variant, which now the CDC says is as transmissible as chicken pox. You are very unlikely to catch or spread covid if you are vaccinated, and if you do get sick, it will likely be very mild (though if infected while vaccinated, you can spread the Delta variant). Basically no one in the hospital is vaccinated. The simple is truth is that you are being very irresponsible if you are going to a large event unvaccinated, mask or not. 

[MillenniumFan]

On 7/31/2021 at 8:02 PM, BillieMyLove said:

Can someone explain for me why we are having this big mask debate? There are no mask requirements at these shows. Yes, masks, especially higher quality ones, definitely reduce transmission and provide some protection to both the wearer and those around them, but they are nowhere near as effective as vaccines. That's why we also had social distancing when all we had was masks and no vaccines. Being in a mosh pit unvaccinated is taking a huge risk, mask or not, especially now with this Delta variant, which now the CDC says is as transmissible as chicken pox. You are very unlikely to catch or spread covid if you are vaccinated, and if you do get sick, it will likely be very mild (though if infected while vaccinated, you can spread the Delta variant). Basically no one in the hospital is vaccinated. The simple is truth is that you are being very irresponsible if you are going to a large event unvaccinated, mask or not. 

I think it's more to do with mask mandates being debated as an additional measure and that some people seem to have a general irrational aversion to wearing them. I do agree though, if there is no test/vaccine mandate for these shows, then masks or not will not affect how many people get infected as greatly as either of those things would.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, MillenniumFan said:

I think it's more to do with mask mandates being debated as an aditional measure and that some people seem to have an irrational aversion to wearing them. I do agree though, if there is no test/vaccine mandate for these shows, then masks or not will not affect how many people get infected as greatly as either of those things would.

Yeah, I think a vaccine requirement would make much more sense than a mask requirement. Too hard to enforce the mask rules anyway. People are just going to start taking them off when they start sweating in the pit, and I don't know how anyone will stop them. Just make people show proof of vaccination. 

[MillenniumFan]

On 7/31/2021 at 8:19 PM, BillieMyLove said:

Yeah, I think a vaccine requirement would make much more sense than a mask requirement. Too hard to enforce the mask rules anyway. People are just going to start taking them off when they start sweating in the pit, and I don't know how anyone will stop them. Just make people show proof of vaccination. 

Purely cynically, part of me wonders how many tickets they'd actually be able to sell in that case in places like TX etc. 

[Rumpelstiltskin2000]

I do believe the US is probably a little safer than the UK who used so much Astrazeneca as opposed to Pfizer/Moderna (although J&J also isn't as effective) 

Still can't believe these Florida shows are going ahead with the amount of cases they've been reporting this last week. I'd hate there to be a Hella Mega strain which would end up reflecting badly on the bands

[Guest]

Just now, MillenniumFan said:

Purely cynically, part of me wonders how many tickets they'd be able to sell in that case in places like TX etc. 

You are very correct. That's probably why they have not issued a requirement, especially with these tickets already sold. 

Just now, Rumpelstiltskin2000 said:

I do believe the US is probably a little safer than the UK who used so much Astrazeneca as opposed to Pfizer/Moderna (although J&J also isn't as effective) 

Still can't believe these Florida shows are going ahead with the amount of cases they've been reporting this last week. I'd hate there to be a Hella Mega strain which would end up reflecting badly on the bands

Everyone forgets though that this is only one of many large events. There are lots of other concerts, sporting events, etc. going on. Large county and state fairs are starting again too. Heck, in less than a month, there will be one about a mile from my house that draws about 10,000 people per day. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, Hella Mega or not.

[Christian's Inferno!]

15 minutes ago, MillenniumFan said:

Purely cynically, part of me wonders how many tickets they'd actually be able to sell in that case in places like TX etc. 

I imagine most Green Day fans would be left-leaning at least. Don't think there'd be a lot of anti-vaxxers going to a Green Day show

[pacejunkie punk]

1 minute ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

I imagine most Green Day fans would be left-leaning at least. Don't think there'd be a lot of anti-vaxxers going to a Green Day show

You’d be surprised. You don’t have to be a right wing conspiracy nut to not get vaccinated. I’ve seen post from fans who are young and aren’t worried and didn’t think they needed it or just can’t be bothered to get their shit together and get it. 

[MillenniumFan]

50 minutes ago, pacejunkie punk said:

You’d be surprised. You don’t have to be a right wing conspiracy nut to not get vaccinated. I’ve seen post from fans who are young and aren’t worried and didn’t think they needed it or just can’t be bothered to get their shit together and get it. 

Not to mention the fringe of left-wingers obsessed with alternative medicine. Still, it’s probably true GD ought to have fewer problems with their fans than perhaps some other artists who might try to enforce such a mandate.

[Cunt]

5 hours ago, Billie Joes Eyelids said:

You're saying the size of droplets vary? When I sneeze, whether I have bacterial pneumonia or a virus, the size of the droplets I spew are the same. 

That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Did you happen to measure them yourself? That would be pretty hard to do considering most droplets are rather small. And yes sizes of droplets vary unless you have some sort of microscopic cheese grater with even holes that your sneezing through…. But you never know. 
 

Referring to viral load here’s the deal. It doesn’t take that much exposure for you to become infected with Covid 19. If someone wearing a mask sneezes, talks, sings, spits, yells, coughs the smaller droplets still get through and how long do pathogens stay in the air for? Several minutes sometimes hours. You can walk buy and breath in the pathogens long after the person is gone and still get infected. With the the pathogens left in the air their could be a small amount of virus and yes that person doesn’t get as sick as per the science or their could be a significant amount of virus in those pathogens and therefore the infection will be serious. Just like I’ve said mask compliance was at its highest and we still saw more infections and deaths per day than say over the summer last year when mask compliance wasn’t as high or even right now mask compliance isn’t high and deaths on average have stayed at nearly the same rate over the last 2 months even with infections spiking due the Delta Variant. Obviously the big factor now vs last year is that we have a vaccine now.

Also the death rates Florida and Texas are identical to that of California and even less than New York. The latter 2 of course states with higher mask compliance. 

[Christian's Inferno!]

1 hour ago, Cunt said:

Also the death rates Florida and Texas are identical to that of California and even less than New York. The latter 2 of course states with higher mask compliance. 

If you're comparing death rates between states, you have to take more factors into account than just mask compliance such as population, population density, age structure of the population. The denser a population, the harder it is to socially distance & thus the easier it is for the virus to spread. The older a population, the more vulnerable it is. 

Population density (obtained from google)
New York - 421 p/square mile
Florida - 353.4
California - 251.3
Texas - 109.9

Population under 18 (Source: https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/compare/california.florida)
Florida - 19.9%
New York - 20.8%
California - 22.7%
Texas - 25.8%

Population 65+ (Same source)
Texas - 12.6%
California - 14.3%
New York - 16.4%
Florida - 20.5%
 

Now, based on this, you'd expect New York to have higher death rates due to the dense population & the older population aged 65+. Texas' comparably low population density and younger population means that its death rate shouldn't be equivalent to Florida or California

This link (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/) also says that California's death rate is lower than both Texas and Florida which have around 180 deaths per 100,000 people while California has 163 deaths per 100,000

This seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation for why each of these states have had the death rates that they have

There are additional factors that need to be addressed i.e. how many people travelling to and from each state, population of surrounding states, homelessness etc.. Because there are so much factors to consider, you cannot say "This state increased mask compliance but cases/deaths still went up while other states that didn't increase mask compliance as much didn't see the same increase in cases/deaths: thus masks don't work" because there can be a ton of reasons why cases may have gone up or down

[Vintage Disciple]

5 hours ago, pacejunkie punk said:

You’d be surprised. You don’t have to be a right wing conspiracy nut to not get vaccinated. I’ve seen post from fans who are young and aren’t worried and didn’t think they needed it or just can’t be bothered to get their shit together and get it. 

This is true...I have good friends who are very liberal and are choosing not to be vaccinated because they don't trust it and the "deep state", etc...