Why did Green Day make up the story of C&V being stolen in the first place?

[green day is]

Once upon a time White Tim explained just how impractical the idea of stealing master tapes from a studio is. Detailing the standard security practices of a major label studio + the physical size of the masters. I don't have this post on hand, hope someone else does.

I also assume that if there was a police report - which there would be without question - I would have seen it by now. If, by chance, no one has ever dug into that issue then I'd suggest someone try.

Mike's statement that they "had backups" but they "just weren't the same" does not make sense in any way. It's literally the same audio content on a different reel of tape. It's bordering on non-sequitur. I honestly don't know what he was trying to say; I mean no exaggeration when I say that statement is actually nonsensical.

Inside info says that Cavallo and Warner just didn't think it was good enough. That's technically a rumor, but we can come to the same conclusion based on the above regardless of the inside info.

So we know for a 99.99% fact that it was not "stolen".

So here's the question. After more than 15 years of following this band, this is what actually haunts me about the "lost" album - The album wasn't promoted at all between the release of Warning and AI. It wasn't expected and then cancelled. We didn't know it existed until after AI had already released when they explicitly decided to bring it up. So why tell us it existed - and given telling us that it existed - why say anything about it at all beyond "we recorded some stuff, but decided ultimately to work on the better idea for AI instead"?

Why claim they had an album that was stolen?

[Beerjeezus]

It’s a more interesting story than “werecorded some stuff, but decided ultimately to work on the better idea for AI instead” and it avoids talking about how they had an argument about how Billie wrote songs and the rest of the band thought they sucked.

[Hermione]

3 hours ago, Beerjeezus said:

It’s a more interesting story than “werecorded some stuff, but decided ultimately to work on the better idea for AI instead” and it avoids talking about how they had an argument about how Billie wrote songs and the rest of the band thought they sucked.

Agreed. Also they still basically admitted that this was the real reason at the same time by mentioning/hinting at that stuff alongside the stolen tapes story. They said they could've recreated the album if they really wanted to, but the "theft" made them re-evaluate things and realise it wasn't "maximum Green Day" so starting over with more ambition was for the best. Made for a better and easier to talk about story without being truly deceptive. 

As far as why they even brought it up instead of just acting like AI was the only album they were ever working on I think it's because they did want to share the story about how they had some dark times as a band with doubts about continuing etc, but got through it and got inspired to be more ambitious, became stronger than ever and made an epic album. It's a cool story and they wanted to be somewhat honest as well. The stolen tapes part just jazzed the whole thing up and made some of the more awkward parts to talk about less awkward. 

[Todd]

If anyone hasn’t heard this interview yet, it’s worth a listen. It just surfaced this year, and it was recorded before American Idiot came out. Mike is completely honest with his story about the recording session, it must be before they made up the stolen album story. He pretty much explains that C&V was going one direction, but when they started writing American Idiot songs, they were going a different direction and they wanted to pursue that style instead, so they put C&V on hold. A much more logical explanation than stolen masters. 

 

[That Dude]

What could have been some alternate ways of dealing with this album?

"We recorded an album, but it sucked."     That could stain an otherwise stellar career.  Not a good move.  

Silence.     That would make sense.  I bet every musician on Earth has at least 2 albums they've swept under the rug and never even discussed.   

At this point, it's part of the American Idiot mythos.     Dirty Polka Christmas songs, Money Money 2020, Cigs and Valentines.      They may choose to keep the mystery going, but I'd love to see footage from those Pre-Idiot studio days.   If Heart Like a Hand Grenade was just the bottom of the iceberg of a much longer documentary.   I just may ask my friend John R. about it, haha.  

We could have gotten 4 or more Green Day albums in 2004, which would have been insane.   Or we could have gotten a version of American Idiot that was not as good, or a weird amalgamation of Money Money 2020 and Idiot.      

Ultimately, Green Day were struggling in 2001-2003 and their struggles became the catalyst for the greatest album of all time.   Which in turn became kind of a problem for the band as they were overwhelmed by the frenzy that followed.  

I think they made up the story as a part of the American Idiot plan.   It makes American Idiot sound like even more of a risk, that it came out of such trying times.

I wonder how much of C & G has been reused at this point.  I know we've heard all the guesses, but no one knows....

 

[pacejunkie punk]

Some more real time info comes from the phone messages

https://greenday.fm/audio/phone-messages/

If you listen over the period 2002-2003, Billie makes reference first to working on some material but not wanting to put out something they’re not totally psyched about and then later he says they wrote stuff they really love. No mention of anything being “stolen” then.

My personal theory for why they made up this story (no evidence for this though just that it makes some sense and answers your question why lie and say it was stolen) was that it was protection from their label for having wasted studio time recording an album they didn’t want released and to prevent Warner from releasing it anyway by making it disappear.  Even if Warner at the time heard it and thought they could do better, the label could still decide to release it if they wanted to at any point in the future but not if it was “stolen”. 

[That Dude]

6 minutes ago, pacejunkie punk said:

Some more real time info comes from the phone messages

https://greenday.fm/audio/phone-messages/

If you listen over the period 2002-2003, Billie makes reference first to working on some material but not wanting to put out something they’re not totally psyched about and then later he says they wrote stuff they really love. 

My personal theory for why they made up this story (no evidence for this though just that it makes some sense and answers your question why lie and say it was stolen) was that it was protection from their label for having wasted studio time recording an album they didn’t want released and to prevent Warner from releasing it anyway by making it disappear.  Even if Warner at the time heard it and thought they could do better, the label could still decide to release it if they wanted to at any point in the future but not if it was “stolen”. 

So Green Day stole it from the studio to prevent it from being released?   

Very interesting! 

 

[pacejunkie punk]

13 minutes ago, That Dude said:

So Green Day stole it from the studio to prevent it from being released?   

Very interesting! 

 

Like I said, just my theory but if they were at all worried about Warner claiming it this could have been the solution they came up with.

[Reverend Strychnine Twitch]

There was no album artwork finalized for Cigarettes & Valentines. There was no tracklist. It was just a pool of song ideas. So technically it wasn't a real finalized album. %80 percent of Cigarettes & Valentines is the song list which is shared in the photo as 'American Idiot B-sides'. The Network in 2003 was a seperate project than C&V. Just a little note that American Idiot first version didn't include She's A Rebel. Let's see what comes next after this new 'The Network' album...

 

[pacejunkie punk]

6 minutes ago, Reverend Strychnine Twitch said:

There was no album artwork finalized for Cigarettes & Valentines. There was no tracklist. It was just a pool of song ideas. So technically it wasn't a real finalized album. %80 percent of Cigarettes & Valentines is the song list which is shared in the photo as 'American Idiot B-sides'. The Network in 2003 was a seperate project than C&V. Just a little note that American Idiot first version didn't include She's A Rebel. Let's see what comes next after this new 'The Network' album...

 

After hearing the latest Network album I’m very excited for whatever comes next 🥰

[localinsomniac]

Wait, what's this? There was a track list under consideration that didn't include She's a Rebel?

[Todd]

18 minutes ago, localinsomniac said:

Wait, what's this? There was a track list under consideration that didn't include She's a Rebel?

Yeah, I've heard that before. Not sure if it was from Heart Like a Hand Grenade or Storytellers, but definitely not new info. 

[pacejunkie punk]

3 minutes ago, Todd said:

Yeah, I've heard that before. Not sure if it was from Heart Like a Hand Grenade or Storytellers, but definitely not new info. 

They don’t mention it in either one, but She’s A Rebel was I think one of the songs not featured in Roecker’s film. I had assumed it was because it was recorded the first day before he showed up to record. 

[nopride84]

shes a rebel was in the tv version and also different clips in the dvd. theyre shown working on or rehearsing every songs on the album except american idiot

[green day is]

9 hours ago, Reverend Strychnine Twitch said:

There was no tracklist.

 

I'm not sure this is necessarily true, since Billie would go on to say that Too Much Too Soon was on the album. I don't remember his exact wording, but in general the way they talk about which songs were "on" C&V implies there was, to some extent, a set tracklist. Even if that never got past early stages.

[Todd]

3 hours ago, green day is said:

I'm not sure this is necessarily true, since Billie would go on to say that Too Much Too Soon was on the album. I don't remember his exact wording, but in general the way they talk about which songs were "on" C&V implies there was, to some extent, a set tracklist. Even if that never got past early stages.

I don’t think there was a tracklist, as in a definite order that they wanted to songs in. But there is definitely a list of songs that were part of the session, which is what we generally refer to when we discuss whether or not a song would have been “on C&V”. 

[green day is]

57 minutes ago, Todd said:

I don’t think there was a tracklist, as in a definite order that they wanted to songs in. But there is definitely a list of songs that were part of the session, which is what we generally refer to when we discuss whether or not a song would have been “on C&V”. 

Ye that's what I mean. There are definitely certain songs that were designated as a part of C&V -- along with the other 60+ they had floating.

[trambopoline]

this is the alleged pool of songs, posted by Roecker I think:

 

1. Too Much Too Soon

2. Shoplifter

3. Governator (I'll Be Back)

4. Horseshoes & Handgrenades

5. The Pedestrian

6. Too Young

7. Lights Out

8. Lately (One More Year)

9. Cigarettes & Valentines

10. End Of The World

11. Walk Away

12. Broadway

13. Waste Away

14. Dropout

15. 19th Nervous Breakdown

16. Favorite Son [Japan Bonus]

[green day is]

2 hours ago, Herroon said:

this is the alleged pool of songs, posted by Roecker I think:

This is not Cigarettes and Valentines, though some confirmed C&V songs and some songs that were undoubtedly part of C&V are on there. It's written at the top - they're potential American Idiot B-sides.

This is CD 2 of a set that also included the entirety of AI. This was produced at the point that AI was basically finalized, with only a couple naming changes (eg; Clusterbomb -> Letterbomb; Novacaine -> Give Me Novocaine) left. Long after the C&V project was abandoned.

Also: Many of the recordings themselves from C&V were likely abandoned. Too Much Too Soon, Shoplifter, and Governator were all recorded in the same session. But Governator was obviously recorded after Arnold was elected, dating them well after any recording from C&V (also precluding Governator itself from being a C&V candidate). Meaning at the very least TMTS was rerecorded and the version that would have been on C&V is lost. But most likely almost everything here was recorded during AI sessions for use specifically as B-sides.

[jengd]

I would love to hear their cover on 19th Nervous Breakdown, don’t think I ever have, is it out there?

[green day is]

Never made it out. They've been trying it since nimrod!

[tdlyon]

4 hours ago, Herroon said:

this is the alleged pool of songs, posted by Roecker I think:

 

1. Too Much Too Soon

2. Shoplifter

3. Governator (I'll Be Back)

4. Horseshoes & Handgrenades

5. The Pedestrian

6. Too Young

7. Lights Out

8. Lately (One More Year)

9. Cigarettes & Valentines

10. End Of The World

11. Walk Away

12. Broadway

13. Waste Away

14. Dropout

15. 19th Nervous Breakdown

16. Favorite Son [Japan Bonus]

 

I didn't realize Horseshoes and those two FHBT songs were that old

[green day is]

58 minutes ago, tdlyon said:

 

I didn't realize Horseshoes and those two FHBT songs were that old

We knew about horseshoes for a long time. Billie mentioned it in a 21cbd-era interview that it came from the AI sessions. The FBHT songs were a surprise tho

[Little Boy Named Booze]

C & V need a studio version. I love the live one but holy shit please just give us a studio version.

[Todd]

5 hours ago, green day is said:

This is not Cigarettes and Valentines, though some confirmed C&V songs and some songs that were undoubtedly part of C&V are on there. It's written at the top - they're potential American Idiot B-sides.

This is an assumption that I’m not ready to hop on board with. There’s just not enough information to call it either way. WhiteTim pointed out before that just because it says American Idiot B-Sides, it doesn’t even mean they’re all from the same session. Look at You Lied and Rotting. Those were Nimrod B-sides, but they’re both from the Insomniac session. This could easily be a collection of songs from different sessions that they intended to pool from for b-sides. It could be the Nimrod version of 19th Nervous Breakdown. They could all be recorded after C&V. They could all be from C&V. Some of them could be from before C&V. We just don’t know, we can only speculate.