Are Green Day A Right Wing Or Left Wing Band?

[Joe.]

18 minutes ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

Nice argument, man

I guess voting for someone who doesn't do enough about those things is just as bad as voting for someone who actively fights against those things

I would implore any Americans to vote third party. If the point I have emboldened was correct, I would agree with you.

[Christian's Inferno!]

10 minutes ago, Joe. said:

I would implore any Americans to vote third party. If the point I have emboldened was correct, I would agree with you.

So you'd implore any Americans to waste their vote? Third party votes are literally wasted votes. Third parties have no chance of winning or even coming close to being competitive unless something like ranked choice voting gets implemented

[jengd]

Jeez, is this still going???

[Hermione]

25 minutes ago, Joe. said:

I would implore any Americans to vote third party. If the point I have emboldened was correct, I would agree with you.

To what end though? It would be nice if voting third party was a realistic alternative but at this point it isn't yet. It's too late for that this time around, it isn't a realistic option and isn't realistically going to change the voting system. Voting third party in this election = letting Trump win. If Trump/the Republicans and Biden/the Democrats were truly as bad as each other it might be justifiable to do that. But they're not and Trump getting four more years is going to have very real negative consequences for people.

What did all the people in the UK who wouldn't vote for Corbyn and sat at home or wasted their vote on someone else instead achieve except allowing the Tories to keep power and putting buffoon Boris in charge leading to a terrible handling of the current pandemic and who knows how bad of a disaster of Brexit? Nothing good came of it. And nothing good will come of allowing Trump to win in a similar way. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Hermione said:

To what end though? It would be nice if voting third party was a realistic alternative but at this point it isn't yet. It's too late for that this time around, it isn't a realistic option and isn't realistically going to change the voting system. Voting third party in this election = letting Trump win. If Trump/the Republicans and Biden/the Democrats were truly as bad as each other it might be justifiable to do that. But they're not and Trump getting four more years is going to have very real negative consequences for people.

What did all the people in the UK who wouldn't vote for Corbyn and sat at home or wasted their vote on someone else instead achieve except allowing the Tories to keep power and putting buffoon Boris in charge leading to a terrible handling of the current pandemic and who knows how bad of a disaster of Brexit? Nothing good came of it. And nothing good will come of allowing Trump to win in a similar way. 

Can we get permission to convert this to a Billie smut thread? That seems to make a lot more sense than what is currently going on here. 🤣

[localinsomniac]

Voting third party is like rooting for the Browns in the Super Bowl

[Joe.]

15 minutes ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

So you'd implore any Americans to waste their vote? Third party votes are literally wasted votes. Third parties have no chance of winning or even coming close to being competitive unless something like ranked choice voting gets implemented

There is no morale high ground for voting for a pedophile over a rapist. They are both awful candidates, both as people and also in terms of policy. If everyone had the attitude of "my candidate isn't going to win so I'll vote for someone I don't agree with" then there would never be any shift in politics. Bernie for example has brought issues such as a nationalised healthcare system in the political discourse of America. Mainstream voters are now considering that policy. Don't be a sheep, think for yourself and actually vote for what you believe in, rather than a vague moral idea for the greater good.

11 minutes ago, Hermione said:

To what end though? It would be nice if voting third party was a realistic alternative but at this point it isn't yet. It's too late for that this time around, it isn't a realistic option and isn't realistically going to change the voting system. Voting third party in this election = letting Trump win. If Trump/the Republicans and Biden/the Democrats were truly as bad as each other it might be justifiable to do that. But they're not and Trump getting four more years is going to have very real negative consequences for people.

What did all the people in the UK who wouldn't vote for Corbyn and sat at home or wasted their vote on someone else instead achieve except allowing the Tories to keep power and putting buffoon Boris in charge leading to a terrible handling of the current pandemic and who knows how bad of a disaster of Brexit? Nothing good came of it. And nothing good will come of allowing Trump to win in a similar way. 

Not true at all, politics is not that simple. Elections don't happen in vacuums, for example the Greens nearly taking seats around Bristol has drastically shifted local policy of both Labour and the Tories. Biden's calls to only maim protesters instead of firing directly on them sums him up. I don't care that only putting a rubber bullet into someones leg, rather than chest, is marginally better. You're still being fired upon. Just because he's not the bad orange man doesn't make his policies any less right-wing and if you take away the candidates jargon, they're not that far apart. Biden will still regress American society, that wouldn't be something I would want to vote for but I'm not American so it's not my problem.

 

But hey, if supporting Biden helps you sleep at night then fair enough, who am I to argue?

[AlissaGoesRAWR]

1 hour ago, localinsomniac said:

Voting third party is like rooting for the Browns in the Super Bowl

 

[Hermione]

1 hour ago, Joe. said:

There is no morale high ground for voting for a pedophile over a rapist. They are both awful candidates, both as people and also in terms of policy. If everyone had the attitude of "my candidate isn't going to win so I'll vote for someone I don't agree with" then there would never be any shift in politics. Bernie for example has brought issues such as a nationalised healthcare system in the political discourse of America. Mainstream voters are now considering that policy. Don't be a sheep, think for yourself and actually vote for what you believe in, rather than a vague moral idea for the greater good.

Not true at all, politics is not that simple. Elections don't happen in vacuums, for example the Greens nearly taking seats around Bristol has drastically shifted local policy of both Labour and the Tories. Biden's calls to only maim protesters instead of firing directly on them sums him up. I don't care that only putting a rubber bullet into someones leg, rather than chest, is marginally better. You're still being fired upon. Just because he's not the bad orange man doesn't make his policies any less right-wing and if you take away the candidates jargon, they're not that far apart. Biden will still regress American society, that wouldn't be something I would want to vote for but I'm not American so it's not my problem.

 

But hey, if supporting Biden helps you sleep at night then fair enough, who am I to argue?

I mean I'm not American either so I can't vote for him lol. I'm not a particular supporter of Biden, I just don't see allowing a candidate that is worse than Biden to win as a good choice. There's times when voting third party can be of use and times where there's a chance to choose between a better range of candidates (in this case it was in the primaries - too late now). But sometimes when one of the choices is extremely dangerous the better of two evils is the way to go (ie when it's a fact that it's going to be one of the two who wins). The less bad of the two candidates winning is the best outcome that can realistically be hoped for in this particular election. 

Btw can you provide any proof that Joe Biden is a pedophile or has ever been accused of any crime against children? Trump supporters saying he looks creepy in a photo doesn't count. False equilavence doesn't help anyone. 

[AlissaGoesRAWR]

My friend who is gay posted something on Facebook recently that I think summarized the situation pretty well.

He said while he may not necessarily like Biden, or agree with all his policies, or agree with a two-party system, he's not privileged enough to be in a position to vote third party and act all self-righteous about it. That's because the other candidate, and other party, are a direct threat to who he is as a person and his marriage to his husband. I don't care what you choose to believe about Trump's personal beliefs. The fact of the matter is that a goal of the Republican party's platform is overturning gay marriage rights, overturning abortion rights, taking away health care from underprivileged people and a variety of other things that affect people who aren't straight, rich, white men. Look at the rush to get Ruth Bader Ginsberg replaced by someone who would do just those things. People who said "let's just give Trump a chance" did that. It's not just four years of aftermath for people who might be affected by this change.

So if you're looking down on somebody who is voting for a Democrat because they're perpetuating "the broken system," ask yourself — what do you stand to lose if a Republican, and more importantly, somebody like Trump, stays president? Some people don't have the privilege to be able to essentially throw their vote away so they can feel superior. Their rights are at stake. And it's going to take more than a few people voting for Jo Jorgensen so they feel better about themselves to fix that.

I'm not voting third party because I don't want my friends who aren't straight, rich, white men to have their lives worsened. If that means I'm part of the problem, I don't care. 

[Joe.]

54 minutes ago, Hermione said:

I mean I'm not American either so I can't vote for him lol. I'm not a particular supporter of Biden, I just don't see allowing a candidate that is worse than Biden to win as a good choice. There's times when voting third party can be of use and times where there's a chance to choose between a better range of candidates (in this case it was in the primaries - too late now). But sometimes when one of the choices is extremely dangerous the better of two evils is the way to go (ie when it's a fact that it's going to be one of the two who wins). The less bad of the two candidates winning is the best outcome that can realistically be hoped for in this particular election. 

Btw can you provide any proof that Joe Biden is a pedophile or has ever been accused of any crime against children? Trump supporters saying he looks creepy in a photo doesn't count. False equilavence doesn't help anyone. 

I’m aware my opinion is unpopular, if it wasn’t there would be different presidential nominees. Again, based on actual policy they are barely apart, not enough to make the dems the moral choice. It is what it is, if you’re never willing to stick your neck out you will never achieve change.

Anyway, I’m derailing the thread so will leave it there.

 

 

 

[Lenny]

17 hours ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

So you'd implore any Americans to waste their vote? Third party votes are literally wasted votes. Third parties have no chance of winning or even coming close to being competitive unless something like ranked choice voting gets implemented

From what you've communicated here over the last few days any vote that doesn't get cast within your bias is a wasted vote. Get over yourself, nobody's opinion is worth shit nor is anyone's vote. 

You really believe Biden winning will change something? Obama couldn't even execute the level of change you're suggesting would happen what makes you think Biden can? The fucking guy has such a severe alzheimer's case he can't even string a sentence together. 

14 hours ago, AlissaGoesRAWR said:

he's not privileged enough

He's privileged enough to share his opinion. Kids in China don't get that freedom. 

[Hermione]

2 hours ago, Sheenius said:

From what you've communicated here over the last few days any vote that doesn't get cast within your bias is a wasted vote. Get over yourself, nobody's opinion is worth shit nor is anyone's vote. 

You really believe Biden winning will change something? Obama couldn't even execute the level of change you're suggesting would happen what makes you think Biden can? The fucking guy has such a severe alzheimer's case he can't even string a sentence together. 

He's privileged enough to share his opinion. Kids in China don't get that freedom. 

Only one of two people have any possible chance of winning though. Trump or Biden. There isn't a third option, those are the only two possible outcomes. Your conscience feeling better doesn't do anything for the country. The only real life result of not getting Biden in is Trump being in. Maybe for some people it doesn't make enough of a difference to matter but for the poor and disadvantaged and minorities Trump is much worse. It just isn't true that it's only a minor difference. Just because your ideal candidate doesn't have a chance it doesn't mean letting literally the worst candidate win instead is the way to go.

Do you think the US will be better under Biden or Trump for the next four years? That's the choice, whether you make it by voting for Trump or not voting for Biden. 

[Slave To The Network]

2 hours ago, Sheenius said:

He's privileged enough to share his opinion. Kids in China don't get that freedom. 

You can't use that as an argument. Just because this person is able to live in America where there is freedom of speech does not make his circumstances any less valid. Being gay is something that is banned in many countries and even punishable by death still in some. We've come a long way in the US, but people like Trump and his supporters are actively trying to suppress LGBTQ+ rights and it's a legitimate threat to people's lives.

[Joe.]

5 hours ago, Sheenius said:

From what you've communicated here over the last few days any vote that doesn't get cast within your bias is a wasted vote. Get over yourself, nobody's opinion is worth shit nor is anyone's vote. 

You really believe Biden winning will change something? Obama couldn't even execute the level of change you're suggesting would happen what makes you think Biden can? The fucking guy has such a severe alzheimer's case he can't even string a sentence together. 

He's privileged enough to share his opinion. Kids in China don't get that freedom. 

This. Again, if you want change you actually have to do something about it rather than just vote for the marginally less right wing candidate and feeling like you’ve protected everyone and saved them from the big scary man! 

[Guest]

I think the debate that is going on here right now is a little bit of a false equivalency. Right now, Biden and Trump are the two choices for president, and voting for anyone else is not going to make anyone else president. For those outside the U.S, I would just like to remind everyone that the U.S. does NOT have a parliamentary system like in Europe, meaning that there really is not a place for a third-party at the national level. However, if you want to change the system or at least change the priorities of the two parties, the best way to do that would be at the local level. For example, in my state, the Progressive party has a pretty large presence in both city/town governments and statewide government. Their presence has pushed the Democrats to take on more progressive positions. So I would say if you are really into third-parties, vote for them at the local level, where their influence can work its way up. Voting for a non-existent third-party candidate at the national level does nothing to to advance your goals. 

[Little Boy Named Booze]

Don't vote for Biden or he will listen to the scientist.

[Guest]

Just now, Little Boy Named Booze said:

Don't vote for Biden or he will listen to the scientist.

Good point. 🤣

Hey, where's the rest of that erotic Billie-bathing-in-Spain story? 

[Little Boy Named Booze]

1 minute ago, BillieMyLove said:

Good point. 🤣

Hey, where's the rest of that erotic Billie-bathing-in-Spain story? 

FULL STORY

Years ago, when I was backpacking across Western Europe, I was just outside Barcelona, hiking in the foothills of mount Tibidabo. I was at the end of this path, and I came to a clearing, and there was a lake, very secluded, and there were tall trees all around. It was dead silent. Gorgeous. And across the lake I saw, Billie Joe, bathing himself, but he was crying...

I hesitated, watching, struck by his beauty. And also by how his presence; the delicate curve of his back, the dark sweep of his hair, the graceful length of his limbs, even his tears, added to the majesty of my surroundings. I felt my own tears burning behind my eyes, not in sympathy, but in appreciation of such a perfect moment.

He spied me before I could compose myself. But he didn't cry out. Instead our eyes held and he smiled, enigmatically, fresh tears still spilling down his cheeks. I was frozen. I knew nothing about Billie Joe, and yet, as we stood on opposite sides of a pool of water, thousands of miles from my own home and everyone I had ever known, I felt the most intense connection. Not just to him, but to the earth, the sky, the water between us. And also to the entirety of mankind. As if he symbolized thousands of years of the human condition.

I wanted to go to him, to comfort him, to probe this feeling of belonging I had never encountered before. But I couldn't. Because I knew that if I spoke, if he spoke, that moment would be ruined. And I knew I would need the memory of that moment to carry me through the inevitable dark patches throughout my life.

And so I watched him lower his hand, turn, and slowly walk to the shore opposite me. The rest of his perfect form was gradually revealed to me, and I held my breath as I watched him disappear behind a copse of trees near the water.

I didn't follow him, in fact I turned around. I knew there was nothing else we could experience together that would be more perfect than that moment...and it still remains the most profound experience of my life.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Little Boy Named Booze said:

FULL STORY

Years ago, when I was backpacking across Western Europe, I was just outside Barcelona, hiking in the foothills of mount Tibidabo. I was at the end of this path, and I came to a clearing, and there was a lake, very secluded, and there were tall trees all around. It was dead silent. Gorgeous. And across the lake I saw, Billie Joe, bathing himself, but he was crying...

I hesitated, watching, struck by his beauty. And also by how his presence; the delicate curve of his back, the dark sweep of his hair, the graceful length of his limbs, even his tears, added to the majesty of my surroundings. I felt my own tears burning behind my eyes, not in sympathy, but in appreciation of such a perfect moment.

He spied me before I could compose myself. But he didn't cry out. Instead our eyes held and he smiled, enigmatically, fresh tears still spilling down his cheeks. I was frozen. I knew nothing about Billie Joe, and yet, as we stood on opposite sides of a pool of water, thousands of miles from my own home and everyone I had ever known, I felt the most intense connection. Not just to him, but to the earth, the sky, the water between us. And also to the entirety of mankind. As if he symbolized thousands of years of the human condition.

I wanted to go to him, to comfort him, to probe this feeling of belonging I had never encountered before. But I couldn't. Because I knew that if I spoke, if he spoke, that moment would be ruined. And I knew I would need the memory of that moment to carry me through the inevitable dark patches throughout my life.

And so I watched him lower his hand, turn, and slowly walk to the shore opposite me. The rest of his perfect form was gradually revealed to me, and I held my breath as I watched him disappear behind a copse of trees near the water.

I didn't follow him, in fact I turned around. I knew there was nothing else we could experience together that would be more perfect than that moment...and it still remains the most profound experience of my life.

OMG this is so beautiful I am crying. 🤣

[AlissaGoesRAWR]

2 hours ago, Joe. said:

This. Again, if you want change you actually have to do something about it rather than just vote for the marginally less right wing candidate and feeling like you’ve protected everyone and saved them from the big scary man! 

How does voting third party tangibly change anything except making you feel better? Genuinely curious about your logic.

Wouldn’t something like eliminating the electoral college be more effective in ensuring Americans really get the leader a majority of them want and voted for? The way the system is currently set up, there’s no way for a third party person to ever make a dent. If a third party candidate gets enough votes so neither Trump or Biden gets enough electoral college votes for a majority, the decision goes to the House of Representatives, which is Reublican-led. Trump still wins.

A vote third party is a vote for Trump in this election. That’s what your vote gets you.  

 

[Joe.]

2 hours ago, BillieMyLove said:

I think the debate that is going on here right now is a little bit of a false equivalency. Right now, Biden and Trump are the two choices for president, and voting for anyone else is not going to make anyone else president. For those outside the U.S, I would just like to remind everyone that the U.S. does NOT have a parliamentary system like in Europe, meaning that there really is not a place for a third-party at the national level. However, if you want to change the system or at least change the priorities of the two parties, the best way to do that would be at the local level. For example, in my state, the Progressive party has a pretty large presence in both city/town governments and statewide government. Their presence has pushed the Democrats to take on more progressive positions. So I would say if you are really into third-parties, vote for them at the local level, where their influence can work its way up. Voting for a non-existent third-party candidate at the national level does nothing to to advance your goals. 

Not true, but I feel like the point has been missed. Candidates like Sanders have proven that bringing new policies to the national stage puts them in the minds of voters. I haven’t looked at as many articles on American politics as those in the UK, but if this convo carries on I can try and find the stats to show how since Sanders first ran for the nomination voter interest in free healthcare etc has increased, even among the moderate portions of the electorate. You have to provide a platform and believe it or not America will still be standing in 4 years time regardless of the election result, you have to build momentum and at some point decide not to vote for a right wing candidate when you’re not a right wing person 

Just now, AlissaGoesRAWR said:

How does voting third party tangibly change anything except making you feel better? Genuinely curious about your logic.

Wouldn’t something like eliminating the electoral college be more effective in ensuring Americans really get the leader a majority of them want and voted for? The way the system is currently set up, there’s no way for a third party person to ever make a dent. If a third party candidate gets enough votes so neither Trump or Biden gets enough electoral college votes for a majority, the decision goes to the House of Representatives, which is Reublican-led. Trump still wins.

A vote third party is a vote for Trump in this election. That’s what your vote gets you.  

 

Please see above. It’s not even about a candidate winning, if support swings to any candidate, other parties will adjust their policies in an attempt to win voters back.

I agree America needs constitutional reform, again that won’t happen by voting Dem OR Republican 

[AlissaGoesRAWR]

3 minutes ago, Joe. said:

 

OK, so if you lived in this country and were actually impacted by any of this — who would you be voting for today?

[Joe.]

2 minutes ago, AlissaGoesRAWR said:

OK, so if you lived in this country and were actually impacted by any of this — who would you be voting for today?

I would probably vote Green. Never going to win the election, but if say 8+ million people decided to actually vote for their beliefs rather than just the least awful person or the least backwards policies then you would almost certainly see a rise in actual progressive candidates in the future. 
 

It’s not about winning the election, it’s about shaping future policy. There is a consistent record of voter swing directly affecting the policies of political parties throughout the western world. If you search for U-turns of any government you’ll see that yourself. 

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, Joe. said:

Not true, but I feel like the point has been missed. Candidates like Sanders have proven that bringing new policies to the national stage puts them in the minds of voters. I haven’t looked at as many articles on American politics as those in the UK, but if this convo carries on I can try and find the stats to show how since Sanders first ran for the nomination voter interest in free healthcare etc has increased, even among the moderate portions of the electorate. You have to provide a platform and believe it or not America will still be standing in 4 years time regardless of the election result, you have to build momentum and at some point decide not to vote for a right wing candidate when you’re not a right wing person 

 

I think you are actually making a statement here saying that having Sanders and others in the mix improved Biden's position. So therefore, now that we are down to Biden, that's probably who we should vote for.  If people wanted a candidate other than Biden, maybe they should have been more active in the primary process. But now he is who we have got, and as you noted, the process he had to go through did shift his position and his party's position more favorably, and that's a good thing. Voting for Bernie in the general election does nothing since Bernie is no longer running, but voting for Biden may help get some of Bernie's positions into the government. 

41 minutes ago, Joe. said:

I would probably vote Green. Never going to win the election, but if say 8+ million people decided to actually vote for their beliefs rather than just the least awful person or the least backwards policies then you would almost certainly see a rise in actual progressive candidates in the future. 
 

It’s not about winning the election, it’s about shaping future policy. There is a consistent record of voter swing directly affecting the policies of political parties throughout the western world. If you search for U-turns of any government you’ll see that yourself. 

This may well be true, but that is a long-term goal. And that goal will never see the light of day with someone like Trump in power. So to me, the first order of business is to get rid of Trump, then build movements like these from the grassroots up.