Billie Joe Armstrong on new Morrissey Album

[pacejunkie punk]

6 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

If someone’s political views are literally harmful and oppressive then I won’t be made to feel bad for cutting them out/refusing to associate or engage with them. Billie might not think the same but 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

Well I know he doesn’t feel that way because he’s mentioned having some family members who were Republican or right wing. The reality is nearly everyone in America does.   

I’m trying to understand what is being suggested here exactly.  We all have or have worked jobs. Is the idea that if you take on a client or accept a position under a boss you should first research the person to make sure they have never said anything politically controversial before or you can’t take the job, even if it was not in the course of their work?  You might work with literally dozens of people or more in a company.  Who really does that? You’d make yourself crazy if you had to check into the personal statements and views of every person you work with or associate with. It’s just not feasible.  It doesn’t make you guilty of anything. And honestly that extreme type of guilt by association is a little fascist in itself.  It ruined lives in American in the 1950’s when Communism was the big fear. 

[DeJennsitized]

What i'm "suggesting" is that if I knew someone was a racist or a homophobe and I chose to be friends with them regardless, what does that make me? It's easy to say 'but they're a good person in other ways' if you're not the group being oppressed by your friend, but it wouldn't be so easy if, say, I was gay and my friend said she doesn't think gay people should be allowed to get married. 

I never said you had to do in depth research on every person you meet, but if I knew someone was a Trump supporter then I'd obviously think twice about associating with someone who thinks it's okay to make slurs against POC, women and disabled people?

[pacejunkie punk]

17 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

What i'm "suggesting" is that if I knew someone was a racist or a homophobe and I chose to be friends with them regardless, what does that make me? It's easy to say 'but they're a good person in other ways' if you're not the group being oppressed by your friend, but it wouldn't be so easy if, say, I was gay and my friend said she doesn't think gay people should be allowed to get married. 

I never said you had to do in depth research on every person you meet, but if I knew someone was a Trump supporter then I'd obviously think twice about associating with someone who thinks it's okay to make slurs against POC, women and disabled people?

Okay I think we’re straying a bit from the topic here.  Your examples are more black and white in the extreme. But it’s the grayer area I’m less clear on.  Billie doesn’t appear to be friends with Morrissey, he agreed to work a single session playing on one track. It was less than a day’s work.  For all we know that could have been it. This is being blown out of proportion. 

[Hermione]

Also the thing about being unavailable for comment doesn't mean shit. It doesn't automatically mean he was asked to answer a specific question about Morrissey and said no, it could just as easily be that he got asked do you want to do a short interview/answer some questions from the Guardian today and said no, or that he just has a blanket "not doing press at the moment" thing in effect at the moment because he's in the studio/having down time so he doesn't even know anyone wanted to ask about it. You can't judge anything from that line in the article, it seriously isn't something to freak out over.

Working with someone who has said something offensive/racist before (but who doesn't claim to be racist and claims the quotes were taken out of context and isn't widely known for it) doesn't mean you support the offensive/racist thing they said. It isn't realistic to think anyone is going to research everything someone has ever said and their political position to see if they agree with every statement and they align exactly before working with them. They met at an event and then worked on a song. I would imagine if you look at every single quote from every single artist Green Day has ever associated with you'd find plenty of offensive things, that doesn't mean everyone that artist ever worked with agrees with it or "supports them" by association.

12 hours ago, DeJennsitized said:

If someone’s political views are literally harmful and oppressive then I won’t be made to feel bad for cutting them out/refusing to associate or engage with them. Billie might not think the same but 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

How is a a grumpy old man who has no political power thinking/saying dumb things that everyone recognises as dumb and offensive and ignorant and confused really "harmful and oppressive" though? It isn't in his music, what he thinks about things himself is really of no consequence to the world. Political opinions probably never came up between them and there's a good chance Billie isn't aware of every random quote he's made.

[DeJennsitized]

2 hours ago, Hermione said:

How is a a grumpy old man who has no political power thinking/saying dumb things that everyone recognises as dumb and offensive and ignorant and confused really "harmful and oppressive" though? It isn't in his music, what he thinks about things himself is really of no consequence to the world. Political opinions probably never came up between them and there's a good chance Billie isn't aware of every random quote he's made.

It was more a general comment in response to other comments made in the thread about overlooking harmful views, not specifically about Morrissey, though I still think it's hypocritical of Billie to work with someone who has views he actively protests against in interviews and at concerts. It doesn't take much to check someone out, especially if you're going to be publically collaborating. 

[Christian's Inferno!]

After reading the recent posts on this thread, I have to ask... Really? Is this that much of a deal breaker for people? That Billie's working for someone who's views don't align with his?

To be honest, sometimes I think Billie sometimes goes too far overboard with his "woke" liberalism but it seems some people think he doesn't go far enough and shouldn't associate with anyone who has different political views. Not to mention, Billie likely didn't/doesn't know about all the things that Morrissey has said, so I don't understand all this "I'm ashamed of Billie for associating with this kind of person"

If we were only to associate with people who's views aligned with ours exactly, then we wouldn't be able to associate with anyone.

These comments is exactly what I meant when I said "guilt by association is the worst" earlier. Let him just be a part of this track. Why bring politics or social justice into something where it's irrelevant?

[DeJennsitized]

16 minutes ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

After reading the recent posts on this thread, I have to ask... Really? Is this that much of a deal breaker for people? That Billie's working for someone who's views don't align with his?

To be honest, sometimes I think Billie sometimes goes too far overboard with his "woke" liberalism but it seems some people think he doesn't go far enough and shouldn't associate with anyone who has different political views. Not to mention, Billie likely didn't/doesn't know about all the things that Morrissey has said, so I don't understand all this "I'm ashamed of Billie for associating with this kind of person"

If we were only to associate with people who's views aligned with ours exactly, then we wouldn't be able to associate with anyone.

These comments is exactly what I meant when I said "guilt by association is the worst" earlier. Let him just be a part of this track. Why bring politics or social justice into something where it's irrelevant?

It's not about him going far enough, it's the direct contradiction between saying 'no racism!' and then working with a guy who thinks black supremacy is a thing. If you're going to publicly denounce prejudice and then choose to work with someone who publicly says the opposite, then yes, people are going to be a little confused. 

And I never said to only hang out with people who matched your view exactly. Just don't hang out with racists, it's not that big of an ask. I'll say again: if you're not in the group being discriminated against, it's from a place of privilege that you're able to think 'aw that's alright, he's a good person in other ways.' 

I found a list of Morrissey quotes if anyone wants an idea of his views. Bit of a mixed bag.. https://inews.co.uk/culture/morrisseys-most-controversial-quotes/

[Christian's Inferno!]

2 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

It's not about him going far enough, it's the direct contradiction between saying 'no racism!' and then working with a guy who thinks black supremacy is a thing. If you're going to publicly denounce prejudice and then choose to work with someone who publicly says the opposite, then yes, people are going to be a little confused. 

Again, Billie likely didn't know about the statements Morrissey's made. You can be against racism and at the same time be working with a racist person without knowing they're a racist. Unless Billie's completely up to date on all the media articles about things Morrissey's said, idk why he'd know about Morrissey's views.

 

 

[jengd]

Just a couple of observations.

1.  I think we should all be careful with all the”quotes” flying around as we all know how things can be manipulated.

2.  This is exactly why many artists refuse to state a view on anything, it just causes them grief.  

Generally, I admire Billie for airing his views and I do think his views are genuine, that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have to compromise at times, or that said views are just irrelevant.

[The Bellie]

23 hours ago, Billie Hoe said:

The message I'm receiving is that he is an "activist" when it suits him. The easiest form of activism is saying "orange man bad" and yelling out "fuck racists" on stage but not actually feeling compelled to let his actions meet his words. Since he, as a white man, is not affected by racism he has the privilege to be outraged at other people but still be able to separate the person who says fucked up racist shit from the artist who makes good music and continue to support him. It's entirely performative in my opinion. This whole "everyone has different opinions uwu we should be able to still work and talk with other people who we have disagreements with" is such a white thing to say and it disappoints me that open racism is apparently not a dealbreaker. Racism isn't differences of opinions. I really miss the American Idiot times - THAT'S when they actually took a risk. But now, his words seem empty and perfomative and he looks like a hypocrite.

If anyone else who isn't as vocal about anti racism did this, I would have been disappointed, but not upset. Tbh I just hope Billie will at least be quiet about political issues especially regarding racism from now on, but that definitely won't happen. I'm honestly also a bit tired of people constantly defending Billie for everything he does, even if it means defending the shitty actions of shitty people he works with by extension, like what they did "isn't even that bad" or not bad enough to stop doing business with them.

If Billie was really interested in a musical collaboration, and would say no just to meet his fans' expectations, that's where I would be disappointed. I understand your point of view, I have also been confused. But to me it's obvious that

1) he is genuine when speaking about racism and fascism and denouncing it, and he makes a difference by the way he speaks of it. I know it just because he helps me to be more careful to others.

2) you say during the AI era he really took risks. I think he takes as much risk now precisely because of the fact we fans may think of him as hypocrite by putting side to sides two things he does, denouncing fascism and having relations with people that might have something to do with it.

I don't think he has to justify everything he does, or why he chooses to collaborate with someone, or why even more he is friends with someone (like Kat Von D). I would love to hear about it if he talks about it, but I also like the fact he can have contradictions and not be black or white, we all do because we can't always choose the same single field over the others. I have people close to me with very opposite views about loads of important things, when he discuss it we notice how we disagree, but I won't quit being friends with them just for that. Sometimes it's good to be able to be friends with people with specific views you don't even like. I may be defending Billie for all these reasons but I don't agree that defending him means "defending the shitty actions of shitty people he works with by extension". And I think it's sad you'd want Billie to stop talking politics if you agree with the views he expresses then. I'd say, let him keep speaking about it and deal himself with the turmoil he gets back from his fans then.

4 hours ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

After reading the recent posts on this thread, I have to ask... Really? Is this that much of a deal breaker for people? That Billie's working for someone who's views don't align with his?

To be honest, sometimes I think Billie sometimes goes too far overboard with his "woke" liberalism but it seems some people think he doesn't go far enough and shouldn't associate with anyone who has different political views. Not to mention, Billie likely didn't/doesn't know about all the things that Morrissey has said, so I don't understand all this "I'm ashamed of Billie for associating with this kind of person"

If we were only to associate with people who's views aligned with ours exactly, then we wouldn't be able to associate with anyone.

These comments is exactly what I meant when I said "guilt by association is the worst" earlier. Let him just be a part of this track. Why bring politics or social justice into something where it's irrelevant?

I agree when you point out that it's one day too much and the other not enough, about him getting on the moral/political ground. I'm not saying it's the same fans of course. I'm just saying he can't fit what each of us would want or guess from him, plus the fact he puts so much of himself when speaking of politics exposes him more to expectations, like you said @Billie Hoe : he can even less meet them then.

[Hermione]

5 hours ago, DeJennsitized said:

It was more a general comment in response to other comments made in the thread about overlooking harmful views, not specifically about Morrissey, though I still think it's hypocritical of Billie to work with someone who has views he actively protests against in interviews and at concerts. It doesn't take much to check someone out, especially if you're going to be publically collaborating. 

This is the thing though, Morrissey isn't some right wing artist known for right wing views. He's mostly left, as you say his political views are a mixed bag. And I don't think there's much politics in his music. He's said some offensive things including some racist things certainly, he seems to be ignorant about a lot of things and likes to put things in an insensitive/controversial way to garner attention, but he doesn't particularly have a "stance" that is against Billie's. He isn't a card carrying right wing racist, he's made dumb offensive statements but has defended them as being out of context and says he isn't racist. So if you "check him out" unless the first thing you see an article like that one from the left wing Guardian with a list of mostly out of context quotes that labels him right wing you're not necessarily going to see him as someone with a stance that is opposite of Billie's.

Do you guys honestly think no one else Green Day has ever worked with has ever said anything offensive? Morrissey likes to be controversial and has a big mouth so he's got some attention for some dumb statements but he's still just some musician who's views don't particularly matter. I'm sure just as bad or worse has been said by plenty of other random people they've associated with. Musicians thoroughly researching the quote history of every other musician they get chatting with at some event and decide to spend a couple of hours recording a song with isn't a thing.

[Beerjeezus]

[DeJennsitized]

41 minutes ago, Hermione said:

This is the thing though, Morrissey isn't some right wing artist known for right wing views. He's mostly left, as you say his political views are a mixed bag. And I don't think there's much politics in his music. He's said some offensive things including some racist things certainly, he seems to be ignorant about a lot of things and likes to put things in an insensitive/controversial way to garner attention, but he doesn't particularly have a "stance" that is against Billie's. He isn't a card carrying right wing racist, he's made dumb offensive statements but has defended them as being out of context and says he isn't racist. So if you "check him out" unless the first thing you see an article like that one from the left wing Guardian with a list of mostly out of context quotes that labels him right wing you're not necessarily going to see him as someone with a stance that is opposite of Billie's.

Do you guys honestly think no one else Green Day has ever worked with has ever said anything offensive? Morrissey likes to be controversial and has a big mouth so he's got some attention for some dumb statements but he's still just some musician who's views don't particularly matter. I'm sure just as bad or worse has been said by plenty of other random people they've associated with. Musicians thoroughly researching the quote history of every other musician they get chatting with at some event and decide to spend a couple of hours recording a song with isn't a thing.

If you're a musician who is outspoken about racism like Billie, then yeah, i would actually assume he does at least a little research into the people he's associating with. If he doesn't care, that's fine, but right now it comes across as him not practising what he preaches. And that's the issue, not the association with Morrissey on its own.
And yes, Morrissey's views are confusing, but he has supported right wing political parties, said he almost voted for UKIP, thinks Britain First is being censored by the media. And not to mention another collaborator on the album saying she had no idea about his views and feels like she's been had. And possibly that's the same for Billie, but I guess we won't know unless he says anything about it. I just feel like if you want to be taken seriously as an ally, then you should just give more thought to who you work with, that's all. 

[Joe.]

I think this has been blown a little out of proportion, its a small time collaboration with someone who has said some outrageous stuff, but isn't being harmful.  Maybe its easy for me to say as white male, but does anyone really care what Morrissey has to say? His views are pretty much brushed off as being an idiot and its Morrissey's less controversial opinions, such his stance on Brexit, that have pushed away people like Johnny Marr.

If they'd started a band together, I'd get the outrage, but chances are Billie's just doing backing vocals, or playing guitar on one track. Probably thought, "why not?". The whole BILLIE JOE IS FAKE WOKE!!1! thing is a little over the top in my eyes. It's a small collab. That's all it is.

3 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

If you're a musician who is outspoken about racism like Billie, then yeah, i would actually assume he does at least a little research into the people he's associating with. If he doesn't care, that's fine, but right now it comes across as him not practising what he preaches. And that's the issue, not the association with Morrissey on its own.
And yes, Morrissey's views are confusing, but he has supported right wing political parties, said he almost voted for UKIP, thinks Britain First is being censored by the media. And not to mention another collaborator on the album saying she had no idea about his views and feels like she's been had. And possibly that's the same for Billie, but I guess we won't know unless he says anything about it. I just feel like if you want to be taken seriously as an ally, then you should just give more thought to who you work with, that's all. 

You know thats not racist right? Whether you agree with UKIP or not (I don't) they're not racist in their core belief of thinking the UK would be better off outside the EU. There is a clear argument that parties like the BNP shouldn't be censored by the media and should be debated to show just how stupid and ignorant they are. 

[DeJennsitized]

7 minutes ago, Joe. said:

You know thats not racist right? Whether you agree with UKIP or not (I don't) they're not racist in their core belief of thinking the UK would be better off outside the EU. There is a clear argument that parties like the BNP shouldn't be censored by the media and should be debated to show just how stupid and ignorant they are. 

This is a little racist you must admit. 

[Hermione]

26 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

 

This is a little racist you must admit. 

Did Morrissey say he liked that poster? The things I've seen him praise about UKIP and parties like them are things like their animal rights policies and how they're more upfront and open to discussion. The things I've seen him say about parties like the BNP is on the issue of free speech/how "free" speech should be allowed to be, rather than anything positive about the BNP etc. Of course there are racist UKIP supporters but not everyone who has anything positive to say about them is racist.

And again, he isn't a politician, isn't clearly aligned to one political party, and every word he's said about every political party isn't common knowledge. Even if he was aligned to one party since when did Green Day refuse to have anything to do with anyone who supports a different political party to them? Johnny Ramone was a staunch republican who was a big fan of Ronald Reagan lol.

[Joe.]

10 minutes ago, Hermione said:

Did Morrissey say he liked that poster? The things I've seen him praise about UKIP and parties like them are things like their animal rights policies and how they're more upfront and open to discussion. The things I've seen him say about parties like the BNP is on the issue of free speech/how "free" speech should be allowed to be, rather than anything positive about the BNP etc. Of course there are racist UKIP supporters but not everyone who has anything positive to say about them is racist.

Exactly, the mans a moron but he's not a racist. 

27 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

 

This is a little racist you must admit. 

Ah, here you've taken one thing of context to tar the whole party with the same brush, as Morrissey's quotes have been. Incredibly stupid? Yes. Inflammatory/Outragous? Yes. Outright racist? No.

[DeJennsitized]

Billie can collaborate with whoever he wants, doesn’t mean I have to support it. Not sure what world I’ve walked into where UKIP are suddenly not racists who deserve to have a platform and supporting them isn’t a problem, but okay I’m out ✌️

[Christian's Inferno!]

6 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

Billie can collaborate with whoever he wants, doesn’t mean I have to support it. Not sure what world I’ve walked into where UKIP are suddenly not racists who deserve to have a platform and supporting them isn’t a problem, but okay I’m out ✌️

Nobody's saying they support UKIP but people are entitled to their opinion, and have a right to their freedom of speech and expression

I just think people are overreacting about this Morrissey thing and imo it's kinda ridiculous tbh

[Beerjeezus]

Well, lemme excersise my right to freedom of speech:

UKIP is racist and it takes an asshat to support it.

[Hermione]

41 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

Billie can collaborate with whoever he wants, doesn’t mean I have to support it. Not sure what world I’ve walked into where UKIP are suddenly not racists who deserve to have a platform and supporting them isn’t a problem, but okay I’m out ✌️

Morrissey isn't a UKIP politician. Do you really believe that every person who supports UKIP or even has anything positive to say about any aspect of the party is a racist? And that anyone who thinks people with offensive views should be allowed to air them rather than be censored automatically agrees with the views? Things aren't as black and white as you're painting it. The US Republican party is further right than UKIP so better start condemning a lot more musicians for simply working with half the US population. 

28 minutes ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

Nobody's saying they support UKIP but people are entitled to their opinion, and have a right to their freedom of speech and expression

I just think people are overreacting about this Morrissey thing and imo it's kinda ridiculous tbh

I agree. If you look at virtually any of his offensive quotes you can see he just wants to get attention (particularly when talking about animal rights) by saying things in an insensitive and controversial way. Just look at what he says and the contexts it's in lol. And everyone knows he's an ill informed ass. Nothing he says on the subject of politics is worth taking seriously, much less is it worth worrying about who plays a song with him.

[Joe.]

52 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

Billie can collaborate with whoever he wants, doesn’t mean I have to support it. Not sure what world I’ve walked into where UKIP are suddenly not racists who deserve to have a platform and supporting them isn’t a problem, but okay I’m out ✌️

First let me stress I'm not a UKIP supporter, I would consider myself socialist and think the UK should remain in the EU.

HOWEVER

UKIP aren't in their pure and simple terms a racist party. Being Euro-Sceptic isn't racist, the EU has plenty of flaws and I can understand why someone would be opposed to the EU. Morrissey isn't a racist. He's an attention seeking idiot that is incredibly insecure the Johnny Marr is playing songs Morrissey originally sung and is doing a better job. Sure there's a xenophobic element to them but you have that with most right-wing parties, like the Conservatives.

35 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

UKIP is incredibly shortsighted and it takes a misinformed person to support it.

 

[Beerjeezus]

25 minutes ago, Joe. said:

First let me stress I'm not a UKIP supporter, I would consider myself socialist and think the UK should remain in the EU.

HOWEVER

UKIP aren't in their pure and simple terms a racist party. Being Euro-Sceptic isn't racist, the EU has plenty of flaws and I can understand why someone wuould be opposed to the EU. Morrissey isn't a racist. He's an attention seeking idiot that is incredibly insecure the Johnny Marr is playing songs Morrissey originally sung and is doing a better job. Sure there's a xenophobic element to them but you have that with most right-wing parties, like the Conservatives.

 

Imo the only difference between right-wing xenophobia and open racism is that the anti-immigration/eu/islam packaging makes it a little less obvious and in extention more attractive to conservative voters who wouldn't consciously associate themselves with far right.

As to Morrissey, he's said quite a few racist things, possibly because he's an idiot but that doesn't help it at all.

[Joe.]

7 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

As to Morrissey, he's said quite a few racist things, possibly because he's an idiot but that doesn't help it at all.

It doesn't "help" it, but it puts some perspective on the absolute outrage of Billie having a minor feature on a washed up singers' solo album

[Too domb to die]

I despair. Morrissey isn't racist. UKIP aren't racist. People are allowed different views, this doesn't make them intrinsically bad people. The mainstream media's ( let's face it 80% left wing ) current obsession with encouraging deplatforming and disavowing individuals for their political beliefs, feels like the beginning of a sinister marxist agenda. It's ok to hold conservative views and anybody, albeit Billie or yourselves shouldn't have to answer to the 'right on' brigade. If they choose to work with someone who holds different views from their own.