Billie Joe Armstrong on new Morrissey Album

[Joe.]

1 hour ago, Beerjeezus said:

Then the question is, would he recognize a racist far right Nazi if there was one right in front of him.

Who knows? I do doubt Morrissey is a member of any Neo-Nazi party though so this collab won't give us any insight.

[DeJennsitized]

2 hours ago, Joe. said:

Not looking to have this debate again, but it's my view that these views should be challenged, rather than silenced, in order to expose and put them down. Simply silencing these views mean they grow and develop and become something more ugly when they emerge. Brexit is a good example. A considerable amount of the UK had felt abandoned and ignored for decades and the Brexit vote was a response to it. If we end up remaining in the EU I would be concerned about the eventual political repercussions. 

At this point I'm kinda tired of this debate now. We all agree Morrissey has made racist comments, we all feel differently about a minor collab. I really enjoy The Smiths so maybe I'm too invested in the music, but I don't really know how to feel about this anymore. My view on Morrissey has changed over the course of the debate, but I also think that rightly or wrongly the context of his comments is important. Im not defending him or Billie, but in my opinion it's still important. Doesn't make his comments any less racist tho, so I'm conflicted over this.

I appreciate that it's probably way easier for me to say something as someone who doesn't care for Morrissey or his music in the first place. But your first comment is the exact stance I and others have taken in regards to challenging an issue instead of overlooking/ignoring, so I don't really get your point.

Brexit supporters felt validated in their views after the vote and it led to a rise in hate crime. The government decided to give them a voice and act on the result despite the potential damage to the economy and now look at the mess we're in. 

I also appreciate that the debate is tiring but I am glad it was had, believe it or not.

 

[Joe.]

27 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

I appreciate that it's probably way easier for me to say something as someone who doesn't care for Morrissey or his music in the first place. But your first comment is the exact stance I and others have taken in regards to challenging an issue instead of overlooking/ignoring, so I don't really get your point.

Brexit supporters felt validated in their views after the vote and it led to a rise in hate crime. The government decided to give them a voice and act on the result despite the potential damage to the economy and now look at the mess we're in. 

I also appreciate that the debate is tiring but I am glad it was had, believe it or not.

 

So if we’re in agreement that these views should be challenged rather than ignored what’s the issue with the collab? Instead of cancelling Morrissey or whatever there can be a collab and the politics be discussed separately.

Whilst I want the UK to remain in the EU I do wonder if negotiations would’ve gone better with a better government, but that’s a conversation for another day.

I’m glad the conversations happened, but I’m tired of going in the same circles

[DeJennsitized]

15 minutes ago, Joe. said:

So if we’re in agreement that these views should be challenged rather than ignored what’s the issue with the collab? Instead of cancelling Morrissey or whatever there can be a collab and the politics be discussed separately.

Whilst I want the UK to remain in the EU I do wonder if negotiations would’ve gone better with a better government, but that’s a conversation for another day.

I’m glad the conversations happened, but I’m tired of going in the same circles

IMO challenging them doesn't mean collaborating with people who hold them, it means turning down opportunities because your no-racism stance is stronger than your 'hey but Morrissey's a good musician' stance. To not condemn is to condone (in actions.)

You can only separate the politics if you're not affected by it. People who are a direct target of some of these views don't have that luxury

[Joe.]

4 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

You can only separate the politics if you're not affected by it. People who are a direct target of some of these views don't have that luxury

Thats a fair comment and ultimately why I left the debate for a while. It's easier for me as a white male to look at the context of the comments than someone who is directly affected by the comments. I stand by my statement that the context behind these comments is important and imo changes their meaning, but I appreciate this is easy for me to say. I don't find Morrissey offensive, so I can look past his comments. Doesn't make that right, but that's the position I'm in.

7 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

IMO challenging them doesn't mean collaborating with people who hold them, it means turning down opportunities because your no-racism stance is stronger than your 'hey but Morrissey's a good musician' stance. To not condemn is to condone (in actions.)

I can understand the logic and don't disagree with you, but for me this collaboration doesn't mean Billie condones Morrissey's actions.

[Hermione]

51 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

IMO challenging them doesn't mean collaborating with people who hold them, it means turning down opportunities because your no-racism stance is stronger than your 'hey but Morrissey's a good musician' stance. To not condemn is to condone (in actions.)

 

Literally so many people don't know that Morrissey has made racist comments though. You can clearly see that a lot of people in this thread weren't aware until they were posted. I'm pretty sure over in the US an ageing UK musician's comments about UK politics aren't widely reported. Like, I live in the UK and all I knew was he was very vocal about animal rights, had vaguely heard that he'd said something snobby about Sadiq Khan's accent and that he was pro Brexit, and that's it until this thread. Billie lives on a different continent with different news and isn't involved in online social justice circles so the chance of him missing the info is even higher. If you want to pretend Billie was sitting there weighing up "well I know Morrissey's a deplorable racist but I like his music, hmm what to do?" you can but imo the likelihood of that isn't high. You're looking at it as more simple than it is, he can't condemn something unless he's aware of it and the fact remains we don't know if he was.

[DeJennsitized]

12 minutes ago, Hermione said:

Literally so many people don't know that Morrissey has made racist comments though. You can clearly see that a lot of people in this thread weren't aware until they were posted. I'm pretty sure over in the US an ageing UK musician's comments about UK politics aren't widely reported. Like, I live in the UK and all I knew was he was very vocal about animal rights, had vaguely heard that he'd said something snobby about Sadiq Khan's accent and that he was pro Brexit, and that's it until this thread. Billie lives on a different continent with different news and isn't involved in online social justice circles so the chance of him missing the info is even higher. If you want to pretend Billie was sitting there weighing up "well I know Morrissey's a deplorable racist but I like his music, hmm what to do?" you can but imo the likelihood of that isn't high. You're looking at it as more simple than it is, he can't condemn something unless he's aware of it and the fact remains we don't know if he was.

It’s also clear that a lot of the discussion is based on the fact that either he did know, or that he has a responsibility, as someone known to be outspoken about politics and anti-racism, to do a check real quick (and it’s not “in depth” research, it’s literally putting Morrissey’s name into google and looking at the first page) that he’s not being contradictory by appearing on the album. It’s really not a big ask. If someone gets a role in the movie, or is hired to work for a company, do you think it’s that unreasonable to check them out to see who they’re working with? I don’t see it as believable that Billie sits in a bubble in California with no idea what’s going on. 

And my initial opinion of “this is dodgy” doesn’t change either way. Using ignorance as an excuse only goes so far. 

[Hermione]

1 hour ago, DeJennsitized said:

It’s also clear that a lot of the discussion is based on the fact that either he did know, or that he has a responsibility, as someone known to be outspoken about politics and anti-racism, to do a check real quick (and it’s not “in depth” research, it’s literally putting Morrissey’s name into google and looking at the first page) that he’s not being contradictory by appearing on the album. It’s really not a big ask. If someone gets a role in the movie, or is hired to work for a company, do you think it’s that unreasonable to check them out to see who they’re working with? I don’t see it as believable that Billie sits in a bubble in California with no idea what’s going on. 

And my initial opinion of “this is dodgy” doesn’t change either way. Using ignorance as an excuse only goes so far. 

In this specific case which seems to be that he met him at an event and went cool I'll pop in the studio and be on one of the cover songs on your album then no I don't think it's unreasonable that he didn't check him out if he wasn't aware of any reason to be wary. Working with someone as briefly as that to record one cover song isn't the type of collaboration where the thought of checking them out would necessarily come up.

Like, he could've just got on with him when they met and thought it'd be cool to be on the album. And if someone showed him some of his quotes he might go oh shit that changes my opinion of him and if I'd known that I wouldn't have done that song with him, who knows. We simply don't know if he was actually "overlooking" anything, I don't think it's an excuse just a very real possibility. It's the reason you can't automatically judge everyone who's ever associated with anyone you think is problematic, the amount they knew about them or their perspective on them might be different to yours.

[DeJennsitized]

6 minutes ago, Hermione said:

In this specific case which seems to be that he met him at an event and went cool I'll pop in the studio and be on one of the cover songs on your album then no I don't think it's unreasonable that he didn't check him out if he wasn't aware of any reason to be wary. Working with someone as briefly as that to record one cover song isn't the type of collaboration where the thought of checking them out would necessarily come up. 

Like, he could've just got on with him when they met and thought it'd be cool to be on the album. And if someone showed him some of his quotes he might go oh shit that changes my opinion of him and if I'd known that I wouldn't have done that song with him, who knows. We simply don't know if he was actually "overlooking" anything, I don't think it's an excuse just a very real possibility. It's the reason you can't automatically judge everyone who's ever associated with anyone you think is problematic, the amount they knew about them or their perspective on them might be different to yours.

That's all just speculation that's not any more valid than that idea that he did know and didn't care enough to say no. We'd just prefer he didn't know because it makes us feel better about it.

[Hermione]

29 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

That's all just speculation that's not any more valid than that idea that he did know and didn't care enough to say no. We'd just prefer he didn't know because it makes us feel better about it.

That's my point, that we don't know either way. Therefore I'm not going to judge him based on one assumed version of events.

[The Bellie]

On 3/24/2019 at 5:01 PM, Christian's Inferno! said:

Just want to point out an explanation for racism or racist actions is not the same as excusing racism. It's important to understand why people do/say racist things rather than just saying "It doesn't matter. That person is racist"

I agree

On 3/24/2019 at 5:05 PM, DeJennsitized said:

Yes: 

I was saying that I don't believe the man is racist, not his quotes. Although, I don't think much of his quotes, apart that they are stupid; at this point it seems like an obligation to put the word racist on them... and there you might go interpreting that I defend or don't care about racism while it's not the case at all. But the way I see it, chances are he doesn't even believe what he says, he says it to provoke, because some people will react strongly like you do. I don't judge that, but not everyone should be forced to react the same way, that seems just as violent as the repression you seem to think he's capable of. Is it good that he says such things? No, but I can't step any further in saying the man is racist, because nothing shows me that.

Moreover, I resonate inversely to you, the fact Billie has approached him convinces me that Morrissey is probably not racist, because I trust Billie and his own judgment, about a man he has more chances than us to know a bit more personally than through isolated quotes.

On 3/25/2019 at 6:29 PM, Beerjeezus said:

I don't think any assumptions have been made, several people explicitly said they're not bothered by those views.

I would barely even say these are "views", he says stupid things but like several people said (and I learned that by reading them, I didn't know him at all before that), Morrissey doesn't seem to make a name out of political views or views about races. I don't approve the offensive and stupid quotes, but the reason I'm not really bothered is that they are taken out of context, and I don't believe the man is racist or dangerous whatsoever simply for that.

On 3/26/2019 at 7:11 AM, Hermione said:

So I think it's crazy to assume that Billie perceived him as a Nazi and went yeah no problem with Nazis let's work together and judge him on that basis when it's more likely he had a different impression of him than that for whatever reason.

Plus, Billie has shown, not only by his speech, but also by the way he acts (the way he risks to alienate part of his fanbase for his velocity against fascism, which doesn't please everyone, for instance, is in itself an act, to me, not only speech; the way he has himself overreacted to fans on his Instagram, when he thought they were suggesting that what Trump does is okay, is an act, which shows that whenever he speaks, it's not void), that he doesn't stand racism. Once again, not for me to think in his place, about whom he should approach or not.

[Libertine Angel]

My original point several pages ago with Billie's collaborations with figures we know to espouse far-right views is that there's no way he hasn't heard about this shit in the time since, if he didn't know at the start that's fine but the fact that he hasn't said anything at all when he must know now (because I find it incredibly hard to believe the news that Kat von D is a Nazi and Morrissey is a racist hasn't reached him) says that he's happy to be seen alongside these people and I still can't see any justification for that.

[Christian's Inferno!]

6 minutes ago, Libertine Angel said:

My original point several pages ago with Billie's collaborations with figures we know to espouse far-right views is that there's no way he hasn't heard about this shit in the time since, if he didn't know at the start that's fine but the fact that he hasn't said anything at all when he must know now (because I find it incredibly hard to believe the news that Kat von D is a Nazi and Morrissey is a racist hasn't reached him) says that he's happy to be seen alongside these people and I still can't see any justification for that.

What are you talking about? I don't think Billie's reading this thread and is like "Oh I guess I better let everyone know that Morrissey is a bad person and I don't approve of what he's said"

 

 

Honestly, this thread has run its course. Everybody's just speculating and nobody's contributing anything to the conversation anymore. I think a mod should close it

[Hermione]

I didn't know someone's ex boyfriend's views and one person's claim of an anti Semitic note (that she denies writing) makes someone a Nazi. Kat Von D completely denies being a Nazi or racist and while Morrissey has said offensive and racist things far from everyone is aware of those quotes and I imagine most people outside the UK aren't aware of his views on UK politics. If he was doing a collab with Trump it would be one thing but these people aren't predominantly known for their political views and deny being bigoted or right wing. It might be possible to form enough of an opinion of the people themselves to decide they're bad news by seeking out info on them but it isn't as simple as that to condemn everyone who associates with them when they're far from universally agreed to be and/or known to be Nazi/racist.

1 hour ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

What are you talking about? I don't think Billie's reading this thread and is like "Oh I guess I better let everyone know that Morrissey is a bad person and I don't approve of what he's said"

 

 

Honestly, this thread has run its course. Everybody's just speculating and nobody's contributing anything to the conversation anymore. I think a mod should close it

I see your point but ehh the conversation can run its course naturally. I should probably stop continuing it as I'm only repeating myself though The song hasn't even been heard and discussed yet

[Beerjeezus]

[GodzillaREMIX]

On 2/27/2019 at 2:25 AM, Mato said:

Totally unexpected and random, but I love it.

The collaboration depicted on your avatar thumbnail may take the cake for unexpected and random...

 

[EmmaCharlatan&Saints]

On 3/25/2019 at 6:49 AM, Hermione said:

 

The people "screaming" (really?) about opinions were referring to hearing the different opinions of people on GDC in this discussion about Billie working with Morrissey. However how far free speech should go in terms of allowing offensive views to be heard or what constitutes views that are offensive enough that they shouldn't be heard is a matter of opinion and not an absolute. Someone believing looser controls on offensive speech is for the better doesn't mean they agree with offensive views or are defending them.

 

Yeah pretty sure everyone's made their opinions on Billie working with Morrrissey known, but when people pop in to claim everyone who disagreed about anything was saying "racism isn't a problem" when that's nowhere near what anyone has said it does make you want to want to point out that isn't what you said, believe it or not. 

yet two people have said they were leaving the forum because of the reactions you and others have given? You dont see that as a problem? 

[Mato]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:31 AM, ryan1039 said:

The collaboration depicted on your avatar thumbnail may take the cake for unexpected and random...

 

I'm not sure what kind of reaction you are trying to provoke, or if you're aware of who the guy next to Billie is, but whatever..

[Hermione]

9 hours ago, EmmaCharlatan&Saints said:

yet two people have said they were leaving the forum because of the reactions you and others have given? You dont see that as a problem? 

I mean people are going to have different opinions and reactions when there's a debate, that's just a fact. If someone takes issue with an opinion they can speak up and there can be a conversation about it, but if someone is so offended it makes them want to leave anyway there's not much you can do to control that other than being open to listening to them and apologising if necessary. As far as modding goes if someone breaks the rules by posting (eg) racist comments or being unnecessarily rude to someone in a debate then we take action but someone just finding the opinions of some people objectionable isn't something we can prevent, you can't make everyone take back their opinion and the points they've made because someone doesn't like them. I absolutely think it's a shame if people leave over it (that's why myself and others attempted to talk about it with them), but it's their choice. The member who wanted their account deleted decided to stay just fyi.

 

[EmmaCharlatan&Saints]

On 4/1/2019 at 4:57 AM, Hermione said:

I mean people are going to have different opinions and reactions when there's a debate, that's just a fact. If someone takes issue with an opinion they can speak up and there can be a conversation about it, but if someone is so offended it makes them want to leave anyway there's not much you can do to control that other than being open to listening to them and apologising if necessary. As far as modding goes if someone breaks the rules by posting (eg) racist comments or being unnecessarily rude to someone in a debate then we take action but someone just finding the opinions of some people objectionable isn't something we can prevent, you can't make everyone take back their opinion and the points they've made because someone doesn't like them. I absolutely think it's a shame if people leave over it (that's why myself and others attempted to talk about it with them), but it's their choice. The member who wanted their account deleted decided to stay just fyi.

 

Your so called attempts to talk to them were to completely dismiss their concerns over people defending blatantly racist comments made by Morrissey. So fyi maybe dont come out defending comments that are harmful regardless if you dont find them offensive and someone else does. And fyi maybe go back over this thread and see the bending over backwards people were doing to defend racist nonsense. The fact that two people at the time were made to feel uncomfortable by that should say something to you as an Admin. Opinions are one thing. Defending racist bile is another thing entirely

[Hermione]

On 4/3/2019 at 6:57 PM, EmmaCharlatan&Saints said:

Your so called attempts to talk to them were to completely dismiss their concerns over people defending blatantly racist comments made by Morrissey. So fyi maybe dont come out defending comments that are harmful regardless if you dont find them offensive and someone else does. And fyi maybe go back over this thread and see the bending over backwards people were doing to defend racist nonsense. The fact that two people at the time were made to feel uncomfortable by that should say something to you as an Admin. Opinions are one thing. Defending racist bile is another thing entirely

People were discussing the comments in relation to Billie working with Morrissey, there was more to the discussion than whether they were offensive. Nobody said the comments weren't offensive. I think because it's a sensitive topic it was legitimate for people to feel offended and say so because that was their point of view and feelings to express, but if people aren't making offensive comments themselves they're allowed to express an opinion on a topic that's up for discussion and they don't have to agree with someone or stop discussing it just because they're offended. Nobody broke any rules and the people who felt offended were allowed to make their feelings known, and we received no reports about any posts in the thread (aside from one about someone calling people fucking morons). As well as offering an explanation for my own comments on the subject I apologised to the member who said they wanted their account deleted and they decided to stay. I don't know what else there is to be done.

[GodzillaREMIX]

On 3/31/2019 at 1:56 PM, Mato said:

I'm not sure what kind of reaction you are trying to provoke, or if you're aware of who the guy next to Billie is, but whatever..

Dude, of course I know who Bryan Adams is....

[emenius]

So just looked on UK iTunes and only three tracks have the running time up so far....the two songs that have already been released and Wedding Bell Blues (although not available to preview or buy yet)...I wonder if Billie’s track is about to be released.

[Billie Joes Eyelids]

https://www.politicususa.com/2019/04/06/barack-obama-circular-firing-squad-hurting-movement.html/amp?__twitter_impression=true

[DeJennsitized]

Give me fucking strength.