Billie Joe Armstrong on new Morrissey Album

[Christian's Inferno!]

9 minutes ago, Libertine Angel said:

No, that was serious. Kat Von D is known to have used anti-Semitic slurs and her husband is a known white supremacist, now Billie's working with Steven "I like Nigel Farage" Morrissey. He may not have known about these comments from the outset but I find it very hard to believe nobody's told him in all the time since, and despite always having been outspoken in support of minorities and opposing the far-right there's been no attempt whatsoever to distance himself from the actual, proven supporters of racism he's working with.

Well how about the read the last 11 pages of this thread because we've already mentioned all this shit and I don't feel like repeating the same exact conversation again which has already occurred like 3 times at least

[Too domb to die]

Wow!, Really?... I  thought you were being ironic. He is far from far right... This is a joke.??  

I won't comment further as it's clear you'll continue with leftist rhetoric . Also Nigel Farage isn't a " Far Right " figure. 

[Beerjeezus]

5 minutes ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

Well how about the read the last 11 pages of this thread because we've already mentioned all this shit and I don't feel like repeating the same exact conversation again which has already occurred like 3 times at least

Asking anyone to read 11 pages of excuses for racism is kinda rude imo.

[Libertine Angel]

22 minutes ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

Well how about the read the last 11 pages of this thread because we've already mentioned all this shit and I don't feel like repeating the same exact conversation again which has already occurred like 3 times at least

Or how about you take note of the fact that I wasn't asking you to?

15 minutes ago, Too domb to die said:

Also Nigel Farage isn't a " Far Right " figure. 

What fucking planet are you living on? He's a bloody Nazi, has been since his school days.

[Too domb to die]

23 hours ago, Beerjeezus said:

23 hours ago, Christian's Inferno! said:

 

Asking anyone to read 11 pages of excuses for racism is kinda rude imo.

Nobody has made excuses for racism. I find that, "kinda rude imo" I haven't condoned any of Morrissey's comments, but Rather than being reactionary, I've tried to apply an element of logic as to why a man who is far from ignorant or stupid may have made those statements. Anyone that has followed him over the years knows he is against racism of all kinds. He has definitely made blanket comments about a race that were wrong, but I know for a fact if you were to ask him do you really consider Chinese people a sub-species he wouldn't stand by that incredibly offensive comment. He was merely bringing to attention that their animal rights ( he has pointed out the west are terrible too ) and health and safety regulations are dangerous which have led to a couple of serious influenza pandemics over the past 15 years.

23 hours ago, Libertine Angel said:

What fucking planet are you living on? He's a bloody Nazi, has been since his school days.

No need to swear. I'm obviously not living on your planet. I live on a planet that can happily explain to you what is and isn't "far right" so you're not confused in future. The far right are mostly made up of white supremacist ethno-nationalists and their end goal is a white ethno-state. They are against race mixing of any kind and constantly remark on how they think Jewish people rule the world and have an agenda to bring the world down to a level of degeneracy that sympathises with paedophiles.

Nigel Farage is right of centre. He appears to hold no clear racist views. He doesn't affiliate himself with the national front and even most recently left UKIP, because of their association with Tommy Robinson ( who again, you could argue is only called far-right by the mainstream media, but doesn't claim to be far right himself ). Calling Nigel Farage a Nazi is more than a little hypebolic in my opinion.

I hope I cleared a few things up for you there.

[Libertine Angel]

3 hours ago, Too domb to die said:

No need to swear. I'm obviously not living on your planet. I live on a planet that can happily explain to you what is and isn't "far right" so you're not confused in future. The far right are mostly made up of white supremacist ethno-nationalists and their end goal is a white ethno-state. They are against race mixing of any kind and constantly remark on how they think Jewish people rule the world and have an agenda to bring the world down to a level of degeneracy that sympathises with paedophiles.

Nigel Farage is right of centre. He appears to hold no clear racist views. He doesn't affiliate himself with the national front and even most recently left UKIP, because of their association with Tommy Robinson ( who again, you could argue is only called far-right by the mainstream media, but doesn't claim to be far right himself ). Calling Nigel Farage a Nazi is more than a little hypebolic in my opinion.

I hope I cleared a few things up for you there.

Farage has openly stated he wants to legalise racial discrimination, if that's not your bar for racism then I don't know what is.

Oh, and I am a person of Jewish descent whose ancestors crossed the entire continent fleeing violence so you can take your condescending, patronising apologist descriptor of what's classed as far-right and shove it up your arse. You've cleared up plenty.

[Too domb to die]

6 hours ago, Libertine Angel said:

Farage has openly stated he wants to legalise racial discrimination, if that's not your bar for racism then I don't know what is.

Oh, and I am a person of Jewish descent whose ancestors crossed the entire continent fleeing violence so you can take your condescending, patronising apologist descriptor of what's classed as far-right and shove it up your arse. You've cleared up plenty.

Well, if that's true, You of all people should know the gravitas of tarring somebody who has no proven far right affiliations with that same brush is incredibly unfair. That article is a ridiculously biased op ed, low IQ, hit piece. Credit where credit is due though, everyone else have passive aggressively responded to anything they haven't agreed with me on. Whereas, you have just angrily come out and clearly told me to shove my pragmatism up my arse.

"

7 hours ago, Libertine Angel said:

apologist descriptor of what's classed as far-right

apologist descriptor? I thought it was pretty close to the dictionary description of far-right. I think it's pretty safe to say that by the way your political barometer works, anyone who considers themselves a conservative is far-right. 

You seem a little unhinged, so I won't be responding to you again. Have a good day sir.

[Joe.]

6 hours ago, Too domb to die said:

 

You seem a little unhinged, so I won't be responding to you again. Have a good day sir.

As someone independent from your conversation, he hasn't been.

[The Bellie]

I think it's a bit sad we end up somewhat judging others or even losing cordiality just because we have opposite takes on things, or come to different conclusions. That goes between us here as well as towards Billie. And putting in people's mouth things they haven't said. For instance, no one said they supported racism or made an excuse for it, just because they don't mind Billie collaborating with Morrissey. To everyone with whom I don't agree, I'm still happy to get to read them and exchange. Happily there are multiple different opinions. Am I the only one who likes the fact that people can think differently than me? Can't we be more humble about opinions? Opinions evolve. We could also try to exchange different arguments with respect and interest, why not? 

None of us knows how Billie knows Morrissey. I wouldn't be surprised if Billie had read the quotes of Morrissey's that have been brought up here, but I barely care, because I don't care about Morrissey and what he thinks. I understand that other people may care, though. I care about different aspects. As we're discussing it from the angle of being Billie's fans, I know Billie has always put the music first, because he believes music unites people. He doesn't stop himself from being a fan of different bands even with lower politics or morals than his, doesn't stop himself from being friends with people like Kat Von D with whom he has other types of connections, which we may never know about, doesn't turn his back on his part of family that are Trump supporters, and he can even put himself in their place and say he could have been there. How could we pretend to be in his place to choose whom he should like and whom he shouldn't? I would have been disappointed if he avoided anyone with questionable morals and declined a musical offer in order not to take any risk to be called out in any way, or to please everyone of us.

[Beerjeezus]

55 minutes ago, The Bellie said:

I think it's a bit sad we end up somewhat judging others or even losing cordiality just because we have opposite takes on things, or come to different conclusions. That goes between us here as well as towards Billie. And putting in people's mouth things they haven't said. For instance, no one said they supported racism or made an excuse for it, just because they don't mind Billie collaborating with Morrissey. To everyone with whom I don't agree, I'm still happy to get to read them and exchange. Happily there are multiple different opinions. Am I the only one who likes the fact that people can think differently than me? Can't we be more humble about opinions? Opinions evolve. We could also try to exchange different arguments with respect and interest, why not? 

None of us knows how Billie knows Morrissey. I wouldn't be surprised if Billie had read the quotes of Morrissey's that have been brought up here, but I barely care, because I don't care about Morrissey and what he thinks. I understand that other people may care, though. I care about different aspects. As we're discussing it from the angle of being Billie's fans, I know Billie has always put the music first, because he believes music unites people. He doesn't stop himself from being a fan of different bands even with lower politics or morals than his, doesn't stop himself from being friends with people like Kat Von D with whom he has other types of connections, which we may never know about, doesn't turn his back on his part of family that are Trump supporters, and he can even put himself in their place and say he could have been there. How could we pretend to be in his place to choose whom he should like and whom he shouldn't? I would have been disappointed if he avoided anyone with questionable morals and declined a musical offer in order not to take any risk to be called out in any way, or to please everyone of us.

I have to disagree - excuses have been made for Morrissey being a racist all the time, what else is "he's only racist because he's attention seeking" than an excuse.

There's nothing I can say against having a civilised discussion, but that's what we're doing here. At the same time, I reserve to simply just not accept certain opinions. I won't debate stuff like "Chinese people are a subspecies", just like I won't debate any other racism. Any of this stopped being "just an opinion" in 1933, at the latest.

Honestly, I don't really care about what and why Billie does and who he likes. At this point he's welcome to do a song with a nazi band of his choosing and will get praised for "bringing punks of different opinions together to share their love for music".

[Hermione]

18 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

I have to disagree - excuses have been made for Morrissey being a racist all the time, what else is "he's only racist because he's attention seeking" than an excuse.

There's nothing I can say against having a civilised discussion, but that's what we're doing here. At the same time, I reserve to simply just not accept certain opinions. I won't debate stuff like "Chinese people are a subspecies", just like I won't debate any other racism. Any of this stopped being "just an opinion" in 1933, at the latest.

Honestly, I don't really care about what and why Billie does and who he likes. At this point he's welcome to do a song with a nazi band of his choosing and will get praised for "bringing punks of different opinions together to share their love for music".

It's not an excuse when everyone has gone to great lengths to say it doesn't make it ok. He has said offensive/racist things to get attention, which was pointed out in the course of discussing why Morrissey isn't widely thought of as a racist and why Billie might not have that image of him, and in the course of discussing whether he's on the "far right" politically. It wasn't pointed out as an excuse for him saying it, and not a single person has agreed with it, said it's just his opinion or said it wasn't offensive.

[Beerjeezus]

9 minutes ago, Hermione said:

It's not an excuse when everyone has gone to great lengths to say it doesn't make it ok. He has said offensive/racist things to get attention, which was pointed out in the course of discussing why Morrissey isn't widely thought of as a racist and why Billie might not have that image of him. It wasn't pointed out as an excuse for him saying it, and not a single person has agreed with it, said it's just his opinion or said it wasn't offensive.

Saying racism isn't racism but something else, be in a provocation, ignorance, or an opinion is making an excuse for it in my opinion.

[The Bellie]

26 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

I have to disagree - excuses have been made for Morrissey being a racist all the time, what else is "he's only racist because he's attention seeking" than an excuse.

There's nothing I can say against having a civilised discussion, but that's what we're doing here. At the same time, I reserve to simply just not accept certain opinions. I won't debate stuff like "Chinese people are a subspecies", just like I won't debate any other racism. Any of this stopped being "just an opinion" in 1933, at the latest.

Honestly, I don't really care about what and why Billie does and who he likes. At this point he's welcome to do a song with a nazi band of his choosing and will get praised for "bringing punks of different opinions together to share their love for music".

Like I said in my previous posts (and others said it too) I can't tag Morrissey as racist for these words, even if I don't approve them. One of my best friends is Chinese, she's certainly not a subspecies. I am not excusing him for anything, I don't care how he really thinks. He may be racist or not. But I don't believe it, a lot of people say stupid things but despite that they don't act racist, they may say stupid things because of other factors, like emotions. If you think that's an excuse, so be it, but I'm afraid of a society where people are condemned for each thing they say (especially which they say, it's so easy to say things) that's not perfectly moral. I wouldn't compare this at all to how Hitler thought. Of course, we should ask ourselves where is the limit between being stupid and being evil, but you can understand that not every one has to draw the limit the same place. Everyone is free to think of it in their way. That's what I was saying speaking of opinions, I wasn't speaking of Morrissey's opinion about races. 

About Billie, he may himself overreact from time to time, but I believe that when he says "at some point we should all come together whatever our opinions" he means it (and he maybe seeks that precisely because he can himself make the mistake to overreact, which is probably not what he wants) and he has always used music to try to get closer to people he wouldn't have come closer to in other ways. So yeah I want him to just keep doing what he feels, connecting with people through music, going wherever music brings him. I won't question his morals for that. Besides, the only way some real Nazis have repented is when others have come closer to them, not rejecting them as human beings at first. I'm not speaking about Morrissey here of course, it's just a thought about how to fight racism.

Edit: I understand that people call out on offensive things, but everyone can be offensive at some point, it's denying we are human beings to call out on every single more or less immoral thing people say... And there's call out and call out. There's a difference between not approving, on one hand, and condemning the guy, tagging him as bigot and calling out everyone who approaches him, on the other hand...

[Hermione]

9 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

Saying racism isn't racism but something else, be in a provocation, ignorance, or an opinion is making an excuse for it in my opinion.

Did someone say the statement wasn't racist? I don't see a problem with acknowledging all facts about it, it was clearly said for provocation (which doesn't mean it wasn't racist) and to ignore that is to not look at the whole picture. If he's widely known as a loud mouth provocateur rather than as a racist, and if he's widely known as having dumb political opinions that are all over the place rather than as a "far right figure" that's relevant when judging someone for working with him.

[Beerjeezus]

1 minute ago, Hermione said:

Did someone say the statement wasn't racist? I don't see a problem with acknowledging all facts about it, it was clearly said for provocation (which doesn't mean it wasn't racist) so to ignore that is to not look at the whole picture. If he's widely known as a loud mouth provocateur rather than as a racist, and if he's widely known as having dumb political opinions that are all over the place rather than as a "right wing figure" that's relevant when judging someone for working with him.

And conveniently this reasoning leads to the conclusion that his racism somehow doesn't matter.

[Hermione]

16 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

And conveniently this reasoning leads to the conclusion that his racism somehow doesn't matter.

Not my conclusion, I think statements like that should be apologised for and he deserves to be criticised for them and for people to think negatively about him for it. I mean as an aside it's lucky that he's just some middle aged musician whose political views virtually no one takes seriously rather a politician, and again that's relevant when discussing why Billie might not be an expert on his political views and quotes, but that doesn't change that he's a dickhead for saying racist things.

I think if this topic had just been discussing Morrissey people would've been on the same page or at least understood each other's point of view more. It's the added factor of whether someone working with him is a problem that's made it much more complicated and things posted more open to misinterpretation. 

[Beerjeezus]

18 minutes ago, The Bellie said:

Like I said in my previous posts (and others said it too) I can't tag Morrissey as racist for these words, even if I don't approve them. One of my best friends is Chinese, she's certainly not a subspecies. I am not excusing him for anything, I don't care how he really thinks. He may be racist or not. But I don't believe it, a lot of people say stupid things but despite that they don't act racist, they may say stupid things because of other factors, like emotions. If you think that's an excuse, so be it, but I'm afraid of a society where people are condemned for each thing they say (especially which they say, it's so easy to say things) that's not perfectly moral. I wouldn't compare this at all to how Hitler thought. Of course, we should ask ourselves where is the limit between being stupid and being evil, but you can understand that not every one has to draw the limit the same place. Everyone is free to think of it in their way. That's what I was saying speaking of opinions, I wasn't speaking of Morrissey's opinion about races. 

About Billie, he may himself overreact from time to time, but I believe that when he says "at some point we should all come together whatever our opinions" he means it (and he maybe seeks that precisely because he can himself make the mistake to overreact, which is probably not what he wants) and he has always used music to try to get closer to people he wouldn't have come closer to in other ways. So yeah I want him to just keep doing what he feels, connecting with people through music, going wherever music brings him. I won't question his morals for that. Besides, the only way some real Nazis have repented is when others have come closer to them, not rejecting them as human beings at first. I'm not speaking about Morrissey here of course, it's just a thought about how to fight racism.

Edit: I understand that people call out on offensive things, but everyone can be offensive at some point, it's denying we are human beings to call out on every single more or less immoral thing people say... And there's call out and call out. There's a difference between not approving, on one hand, and condemning the guy, tagging him as bigot and calling out everyone who approaches him, on the other hand...

I agree about Morrissey and Billie, it doesn't matter what they actually think at all and there's no point in taking either of them seriously.

However, in my opinion, nazis absolutely should be rejected and not given any platform.

[Christian's Inferno!]

Just want to point out an explanation for racism or racist actions is not the same as excusing racism. It's important to understand why people do/say racist things rather than just saying "It doesn't matter. That person is racist"

[DeJennsitized]

44 minutes ago, Hermione said:

Did someone say the statement wasn't racist?

Yes: 

52 minutes ago, The Bellie said:

Like I said in my previous posts (and others said it too) I can't tag Morrissey as racist for these words, even if I don't approve them. 

 

24 minutes ago, Hermione said:

Not my conclusion, I think statements like that should be apologised for and he deserves to be criticised for them and for people to think negatively about him for it. I mean as an aside it's lucky that he's just some middle aged musician whose political views virtually no one takes seriously rather a politician, and again that's relevant when discussing why Billie might not be an expert on his political views and quotes, but that doesn't change that he's a dickhead for saying racist things.

I think if this topic had just been discussing Morrissey people would've been on the same page or at least understood each other's point of view more. It's the added factor of whether someone working with him is a problem that's made it much more complicated and things posted more open to misinterpretation. 

Yes, it is lucky for him, because for some reason people still want to work with him. And that's the point. He isn't being punished for his racism. Why would he change his ignorant views or quit being a dickhead when he can still do everything he wants to do? The point is Billie, and everyone else who agreed to work on the album, is complicit in allowing these views to go on unchallenged. And it's disappointing because it's a direct contrast with Billie Joe's apparent policy of calling racism out when possible. And the fact it would be so easy to do ("No thanks Morrissey, I'm too busy to contribute to the album sorry") but he didn't do it, doesn't help either. 

[Hermione]

35 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

Yes: 

 

Yes, it is lucky for him, because for some reason people still want to work with him. And that's the point. He isn't being punished for his racism. Why would he change his ignorant views or quit being a dickhead when he can still do everything he wants to do? The point is Billie, and everyone else who agreed to work on the album, is complicit in allowing these views to go on unchallenged. And it's disappointing because it's a direct contrast with Billie Joe's apparent policy of calling racism out when possible. And the fact it would be so easy to do ("No thanks Morrissey, I'm too busy to contribute to the album sorry") but he didn't do it, doesn't help either. 

I mean, I typed that before that was posted . Still I don't believe she means to say the statement itself wasn't racist.

Billie can't "punish" him for saying racist things if he didn't even know he said them. He didn't sit online with a bunch of people doing an investigation of him and googling to find every quote he's ever said like the people in this thread have. Nobody researches every quote of every person they meet, that isn't a normal thing to do that you can be "disappointed" with someone for not doing. Without knowing how much he already knew about him or the impression he got when meeting him we don't know if he had any reason to think he should research his opinions and quotes or not. If he hears an offensive Morrissey quote and doesn't challenge it he's leaving it unchallenged, if he just hasn't bloody heard it it's another matter, and we don't know either way.

Morrissey is not that widely seen as a racist/right wing figure that it's unreasonable to think not everyone has that impression of him and would think they have to avoid or be suspicious of him - that's the reason it's been necessary to point out that there's other relevant factors in this than just "look at these racist and offensive things Morrissey has said, Billie shouldn't work with him".

 

[DeJennsitized]

4 minutes ago, Hermione said:

Billie can't "punish" him for saying racist things if he didn't even know he said them. He didn't sit online with a bunch of people doing an investigation of him and googling to find every quote he's ever said like the people in this thread have. Nobody researches every quote of every person they meet, that isn't a normal thing to do that you can be "disappointed" with someone for not doing. Without knowing how much he already knew about him or the impression he got when meeting him we don't know if he had any reason to think he should research his opinions and quotes or not. If he hears an offensive Morrissey quote and doesn't challenge it he's leaving it unchallenged, if he just hasn't bloody heard it it's another matter, and we don't know either way.

Morrissey is not that widely seen as a racist/right wing figure that it's unreasonable to think not everyone has that impression of him and would think they have to avoid or be suspicious of him - that's the reason it's been necessary to point out that there's other relevant factors in this than just "look at these racist and offensive things Morrissey has said, Billie shouldn't work with him".

Either it's fine for Billie to work with Morrissey because the racism doesn't matter, or it's fine because 'maybe he didn't know.' It's been a bit of a mixed bag. If Billie not knowing anything about Morrissey was a possibility then why have there been 11 pages of people trying to downplay the things Morrissey has said? 

[Beerjeezus]

1 minute ago, DeJennsitized said:

Either it's fine for Billie to work with Morrissey because the racism doesn't matter, or it's fine because 'maybe he didn't know.' It's been a bit of a mixed bag. If Billie not knowing anything about Morrissey was a possibility then why have there been 11 pages of people trying to downplay the things Morrissey has said? 

Exactly. There's no need to justify Morrissey just because he's worked with Billie.

It doesn't matter if Billie knew about Morrissey's views - we have no way to find out so it's pretty much irrelevant.

[Hermione]

15 minutes ago, DeJennsitized said:

Either it's fine for Billie to work with Morrissey because the racism doesn't matter, or it's fine because 'maybe he didn't know.' It's been a bit of a mixed bag. If Billie not knowing anything about Morrissey was a possibility then why have there been 11 pages of people trying to downplay the things Morrissey has said? 

Because people in this thread have researched and posted every offensive Morrissey quote they could find. The average person isn't going to be aware of every one of them, there's even been people who are fans of his music posting here saying they haven't heard of this stuff. And one person's trying to downplay is another's just having a different take on it. The general perception of Morrissey really doesn't match the picture of him in this thread, and I just don't think it's unreasonable to consider that not everyone is working with the same viewpoint of him or level of info on him.

I don't have a problem with people still thinking he shouldn't have worked with him, it's a difference of opinion, but everyone who has another view on it isn't just "making excuses" for racism or for the sake of it being Billie.

8 minutes ago, Beerjeezus said:

Exactly. There's no need to justify Morrissey just because he's worked with Billie.

It doesn't matter if Billie knew about Morrissey's views - we have no way to find out so it's pretty much irrelevant.

If you're going to judge Billie for not calling out or reacting to Morrissey's views I think whether he knew about them is pretty relevant. That we don't know either way is extremely relevant in my eyes - without knowing I'll withhold judgement.

[amberwhite]

Serious question: will the people who are offended/calling out Billie for working with Morrissey still support Billie/Green Day? Would that make them hypocrites? How far down the line does guilt by association go?

[DeJennsitized]

30 minutes ago, amberwhite said:

Serious question: will the people who are offended/calling out Billie for working with Morrissey still support Billie/Green Day? Would that make them hypocrites? How far down the line does guilt by association go?

Don't be complicit in racism is my only opinion on this, regardless of what the rest of the forum thinks. I've already said he can do what he wants. That doesn't mean I'm going to support the decision, or make excuses to try and make it seem like Morrissey isn't that bad so choosing to collaborate with him is alright.

I've never made a single mention or implication that I've "cancelled" Billie for this, that's an assumption a few people have seemed to make that's on them, not me. I can love the band and love Billie Joe and also not support this decision that he made.