Question for Green Day fans in Germany

[Yosuke Hanamura]

Now i'm not the biggest expert when it comes to German law, nor do I claim to be. But it is to my understanding that phrases that are associated with the Nazis are outlawed in Germany. In this particular case, "Sieg Heil" in Holiday. I'm sure you know where this is going. Is there an exception to the rule when it comes to music, or do musicians perhaps require permission from the government to say those phrases? 

Example: Billie Joe saying "Seig Heil" in Holiday during Live 8 in Berlin.

 

[jengd]

Have we some German fans who can clarify?  I thought it was things like the Nazi salute which were banned, I think Billie has always been really careful not to use it during Holiday in Germany but don't know about the phrase.  They would have had to censor the song for the Germany audience if it was - I mean the recording too.

[JellyTime]

I don't know how it works in Germany, but in Poland Nazi symbols and gestures themselves aren't banned, but it's prohibited to promote any totalitarian system. It means you can use "sieg hail" in a song like that, when you're not glorifying Nazism, but just express something metaphorically. 

[Hermione]

1 hour ago, JellyTime said:

I don't know how it works in Germany, but in Poland Nazi symbols and gestures themselves aren't banned, but it's prohibited to promote any totalitarian system. It means you can use "sieg hail" in a song like that, when you're not glorifying Nazism, but just express something metaphorically. 

Yeah I'm sure it's the context it's used it rather than the words themselves. Otherwise you couldn't even discuss the issue or teach history etc. In this context it clearly isn't promoting Nazism.

[Thatsername]

16 hours ago, Yosuke Hanamura said:

Now i'm not the biggest expert when it comes to German law, nor do I claim to be. But it is to my understanding that phrases that are associated with the Nazis are outlawed in Germany. In this particular case, "Sieg Heil" in Holiday. I'm sure you know where this is going. Is there an exception to the rule when it comes to music, or do musicians perhaps require permission from the government to say those phrases? 

Example: Billie Joe saying "Seig Heil" in Holiday during Live 8 in Berlin.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure phrases like "Sieg Heil" are prohibited just like other nazi-symbols. There are even some combinations of numbers and letters on license numbers that are not allowed, like "KZ" (abbreviation for concentration camp) or "HH 88", which stands for "Heil Hitler". But it's different when it comes to art and education, and music is an art. Green Day always blasts the phrase out at every concert I've been so far over here and that's no problem. The way they use it is clearly not a glorification, more a satire, and phrases like this are also used in history books, movies, or cabaret. It's the context that makes the difference. In everyday life or in a political context, the use of symbols like that will be prosecuted, which is absolutely correct.

Edit: I hope I won't be prosecuted for typing these things, just to clarify, it's for educational purposes only. Fuck those fucking Nazis! (And yes I'm paranoid).

[Billie Hoe]

Doing the Hitler salute is a double criminal offense when you also use nazi flags, symbols, uniform parts, slogans, badges and/or words (e.g. "Sieg Heil" or "Heil Hitler"), plus you'll be charged with sedition. You'll have to pay a fine or go to prison for up to 3 years (plus time for sedition which can be up to 5 years.) Sometimes you can also be indicted if you have no nazi/polticial agenda or connection to the scene, but only do the salute in public to get attention or provoke.

However, as said before, you are allowed to do the Hitler salute (plus words), if there's no national socialist context and if it's not meant to be glorifying, in art or science and education. Since Holiday is a piece of art (and also satire, depending on your interpretation), it's not illegal or even frowned upon to do it. It's always the context that matters.

Another example: A well known German satirist has a segment for his Late Night show in which he frequently does impressions of Hitler as a YouTube star. He dresses up like him, speaks the way Hitler did, shows nazi symbols, uses nazi words and numbers... and it's not really a problem because of freedom of arts and speech. (I think it's actually really funny)

 

[greendepent]

Very interesting question. Probably BJ doesn't know that thing (as happened with Indonesia), but I'm glad for such a cool insight.

[Billie Hoe]

4 hours ago, greendepent said:

Very interesting question. Probably BJ doesn't know that thing (as happened with Indonesia), but I'm glad for such a cool insight.

What happened in Indonesia?

[Montclare]

8 hours ago, Billie Hoe said:

What happened in Indonesia?

In Aaron's book he mentioned how Billie put his hand on a fan's head (during EJN), which is seen as a sign of disrespect in Indonesia.  Aaron thought Billie should have known that in advance and not done it.

[Hermione]

2 hours ago, Montclare said:

In Aaron's book he mentioned how Billie put his hand on a fan's head (during EJN), which is seen as a sign of disrespect in Indonesia.  Aaron thought Billie should have known that in advance and not done it.

I think it was Thailand. Yeah I think Aaron was making a point about respecting local customs when travelling, it wasn't so much that he didn't know but that when he told him afterwards he was just like oh well we can't always know about stuff like that. Came off that Billie's just not always that good at taking criticism haha. 

[greendepent]

2 hours ago, Hermione said:

I think it was Thailand. Yeah I think Aaron was making a point about respecting local customs when travelling, it wasn't so much that he didn't know but that when he told him afterwards he was just like oh well we can't always know about stuff like that. Came off that Billie's just not always that good at taking criticism haha. 

I don't remember exactly but I think that BJ didn't read a paper that locals gave to him about mannerisms and local stuff. I'll have to find my copy of the book and read it again. It has hilarious

[Hermione]

21 minutes ago, greendepent said:

I don't remember exactly but I think that BJ didn't read a paper that locals gave to him about mannerisms and local stuff. I'll have to find my copy of the book and read it again. It has hilarious

I had a look and you're right. Although it's Aaron so it might be slightly exaggerated . Since I looked it up here it is, it is pretty funny  

 

 

...Instead of putting his foot in his mouth, Billie used his hands. He made the biggest faux pas possible almost as soon as the band stepped onto the stage.
 He began a corny Southern preacher skit, a la the Reverend Horton Heat. 'I need a witness!' he cried, pulling a young volunteer out of the front row.
 Unfortunately, Billie had not read the What You Should Know about Thailand pamphlet we'd been given on the plane. 
 'Rule #1: Never touch a Thai's head! It is considered an offensive, shameful insult.'
 The eager volunteer was facing the audience, so Billie couldn't see her mortified expression when he laid his hands on her head. The whole crowd gasped and groaned. Some even turned away, but Billie was too caught up in his preacher act to catch on. He kept his hands on her head for a full two minutes, while behind him, Mike and Tre continued to play.
 'And now, you shall be saved!'
 Ouch!
 But at least I got the unified, moving crowd experience that I'd been craving.
 The band never even realized what had happened. I probably shouldn't have brought it up the next day, because Billie didn't take it all that well. He seemed sore at me for mentioning it.
 'We just do what we do,' he said. 'You can't take every single thing into consideration.'
 True. But maybe better to say: 'Whoops! Anything I shouldn't touch in Singapore?'

 

In all seriousness I do think Billie/Green Day are generally very good about respecting where they're playing, things like not doing the Nazi salute in Germany as mentioned and often taking time to learn a few words in the local language and make local references and complimenting the country etc.

[BilIie Joe Armstrong]

It's no rocket science to figure out that doing the Nazi salute in Germany isn't a good idea. Or doing it anywhere else. Or doing it at all.

[LaughingClock]

On 5/2/2018 at 2:55 PM, Yosuke Hanamura said:

Now i'm not the biggest expert when it comes to German law, nor do I claim to be. But it is to my understanding that phrases that are associated with the Nazis are outlawed in Germany. In this particular case, "Sieg Heil" in Holiday. I'm sure you know where this is going. Is there an exception to the rule when it comes to music, or do musicians perhaps require permission from the government to say those phrases? 

Example: Billie Joe saying "Seig Heil" in Holiday during Live 8 in Berlin.

 

It’s a GREAT question that I was thinking when I brought up the same realization that they are so similar. I never even realized he was symbolizing Nazis until I was comparing it to “The Show Must Go On” for Floyd.

My somewhat uneducated guess is that there is rules that make the law not in place for parity or artistic endeavors.

Intellectual Property is like that in America. You can’t remake someone’s song even if it sounds the same but you can do it exactly if it’s a parity of the song (extends beyond music).

My guess, as Germany is a free country, with probably sinialar concepts and I think this falls into it.

I was gonna mention this in the thread we were discussing it but I’m sure Herm would have given me a warning had I so I refrained. Good question though. Interested to read the answers in this thread now. I like to give my responses before being influenced by others thoughts.

As a side note, I went to Hamburg and Cologne this year for a couple studio sessions and had such an amazing time. What a wonderful country.

[Yosuke Hanamura]

On 5/5/2018 at 6:36 AM, Jane Lannister said:

It's no rocket science to figure out that doing the Nazi salute in Germany isn't a good idea. Or doing it anywhere else. Or doing it at all.

Considering that BJA has done it during Holiday before, you can't help but wonder at least a little bit.

[BilIie Joe Armstrong]

6 minutes ago, Yosuke Hanamura said:

Considering that BJA has done it during Holiday before, you can't help but wonder at least a little bit.

 I didn't know about that. Well, it's BJA, he does questionable stuff on stage rather often 

[Yosuke Hanamura]

11 minutes ago, Jane Lannister said:

 I didn't know about that. Well, it's BJA, he does questionable stuff on stage rather often 

In Germany, no. But he has done it before.

 

[Billie Hoe]

As a German person I have no problem with him doing it, because I know he's not a nazi and he doesn't do it to piss off Holocaust victims. There are german rappers here who don't know the difference between pissing off victims and oppressors, thinking that it's perfectly fine to rap things like "my body is more defined than an Auschwitz inmate's" , which leads to public outrage and ultimately to debates on TV if it's okay to be outraged by that or if political correctness has gone too far once again. 

What he's doing is a nazi or Hitler comparison. By doing the Hitler salute, he's not mocking jewish people and Holocaust victims, he's mocking Bush by comparing him to Hitler in a very artistic way. And nazi/Hilter comparisons are less a taboo here than they are in the USA. We do that shit all the time, we have done it with Donald Trump long before Billie did, which is why I was so astonished by how many people resented Billie for doing it. My college professor literally gave a speech on the morning of the 9th november before class about how much it scares him that there's basically another Hitler in power now. 

I'm not saying I didn't have to swallow a little when I saw it in the musical, because the actor did it with such simplicity. But that's because this is how we are conditioned. We are taught for years that the Holocaust and nazism are terrible, terrible crimes and anything related to it is either illegal or moral suicide. I don't know if I could do it simply because of that learned mental barrier.