Can GD Make Another AI?

[Clayish]

How is this a thread...

[Haushinka!]

6 hours ago, crock6000 said:

TOO DUMB TO DIE

This song is a bit weak lyrically to be honest but this falls into the vein lyrically in my mind of the Kerplunk "Welcome to Paradise" style of lyrics.  It's about him, but he's talking about his buds, hard times, old friends, parents, etc.  To me this is a modern Green Day "Welcome to Paradise" in it's story.  Not in the music.  We are talking lyrics here though.  

BOUNCING OFF THE WALL

BURNOUT (Dookie)

Now these lines sound just as good to me lyrically, read as poetry as the other stuff but these lyrics while maybe seeming a little edgier, he was 19, not 46 with a wife and kids.  So yeah, you're right, of course its different but as an older man like Billie, I think you bring more to the lyrics.  The lyrics aren't what bring things to you, you definitely bring your shit to the lyrics.  You guys realize that right?  We can only be given a door, but it's up to the thoughts in your head to make sense of it to your liking or not.  This is true with any poet and Billie I believe is a poet.  No he's not Robert Frost but I think he writes the deepest lyrics in rock history and when everyone thought he was just edgy and funny in the Sweet Children, Kerplunk, Dookie, Nimrod days, I always thought he was more of a poet back then and was not at as surprised as everyone else when AI was released.  

 

I appreciate you for taking the time to tell us why you love the lyrics and for giving us lengthy descriptions of these songs. However, the meanings of the songs really have nothing to do with my original point. My point is mainly referring to how Billie gets his thoughts across. It's apparent you love the lyrics, and have a personal connection with them - that's awesome. I, on the other hand, don't find most of these lyrics to be as moving or impressive. Like @TheGrouch33 said, it's a matter of personal opinion. I want to mention a couple things you said though. I removed a lot of it so I don't take up so much space.

^You yourself said the lyrics for Too Dumb to Die are "weak lyrically". I'm glad we are on the same page there! But then you go on to compare it to the lyrics for Welcome to Paradise. I completely disagree with the comparison. The lyrics, in my opinion, aren't even in the same realm! The lyrics for WTP tell a (very clear) story and paint a picture in my mind. TDTD does the opposite for me. It feels like a bunch of random things mixed together. He starts off with saying "I love you. I've got a sentimental illness for you, please don't go away" like he's talking to someone, but then he goes on about his past, trying to find a cause, and holding onto a dream. Needless to say, this song definitely doesn't move me lyrically. The line that's been quoted a lot is "I feel like a cello lost somewhere over the rainbow". Anyone can interpret that however they want, but I find the lyric itself to be cringeworthy, and it doesn't make me understand what he's feeling. I want to reiterate the fact that I'm not talking about topics of the songs, I'm talking about the actual words. By the way, despite my dislike of the lyrics in TDTD, it's one of my favorite songs on the album and probably my most played. 

Bouncing off the Wall - I personally don't like "Concrete dream", "Concrete kiss", and "My little exorcist". I also don't get what he means by "chasing... zeros". This is where we come to different opinions. You think this compares to Burnout. The lyrics for Burnout are so straightforward and you can practically feel his emotion in the song. You say "The lyrics aren't what bring things to you, you bring shit to the lyrics." I think that's why I love their older songs so much more: Because I feel like Billie is talking to me. I can relate to what he's saying one way or another because the lyrics are so easy to understand. I don't have to come up with my own meaning or figure out what he was trying to say. Obviously being abstract doesn't make you a bad writer, I just prefer his older, more direct lyrics is all. 

In conclusion, I think we just agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with having different feelings and opinions of the lyrics! One thing's for sure: I admire your passion. 

[Stan Dellone]

10 hours ago, crock6000 said:

I keep going back to the Beatles. They couldn't make another Revolver, Sergeant Pepper, White  Album, etc but those are all FUCKING amazing different albums as the lyrics with some of those are literal pure word salad as created by Dylan by the way.

....

Every song doesn't have to be a lyrical masterpiece nor musically. Elanor Rigby has essentially two chords and is one of the most respected musical songs ever.

Tried to make this point with "Song 2" earlier.

To each his own indeed, but this album is a fucking masterpiece and if you don't agree, that's cool but it's not the general feeling I don't think.

I still think you're missing the point that a lot of us are making. Or, maybe not missing it, but responding with arguments against opinions we're not purporting to hold. The two Beatles songs you quoted are gibberish to one degree or another, but they're both meant to be that way. Come Together was originally written as a campaign song for Timothy Leary, who was an extremely pro-drug candidate for governor of California (against Reagan, I think). Lennon was in his "I can say whatever I want and it doesn't have to mean anything because people will listen to it no matter what" phase of his song writing career, and this song is a perfect reflection of that. It was nonsense for the sake of nonsense. Plagiarized nonsense, too, but that doesn't matter. The point, like with Song 2, was the pointlessness. And Drive My car was, according to McCartney, one of those songs that they sat down to write, saying "alright, let's write a swimming pool," meaning a song to make money. Just another empty pop tune. That was their bread and butter. Platitudes and wordplay spanning awesome pop landscapes. There's nothing wrong with it, and I love both songs (being an unapologetic Beatles addict), but their history and writing style is nothing at all like that of Green Day, and their catalogues are nearly diametrically opposed in terms of substance. The Beatles were 95% fluff, and Green Day is 95% truth. Defending against what is seen as the (subjective) vapidity of Revolution Radio with songs acknowledged by their composers as being meaningless doesn't help your case at all.

"...help your case..." Like it's a fucking trial.... I'm an asshole. 

I've been trying to distill the issues I have with the lyrical content of this album down to a few characteristics, because I think there are 3 or 4 categories of misfire happening, from poor wording to straight up obscurantism. I'll try to put it into words, but I don't want to pull a Nimrod and rush in without having them before I start typing. 

[UNICORN VOMIT]

Wow eagerly await @crock6000 s reply😐

[Chin for a Day]

One of the best lines on the album is on the only song I despise, and consider one of the worst dribble Billie has ever written (how ironic is that)

"Swear to God and I'm not even superstitious"

[MikeDirntConfused]

17 hours ago, Haushinka! said:

I can't speak for @MikeDirntConfused but I think he's saying you could literally pick any song from their older albums, and find the lyrics impressive or substantial in some way. Whereas with the Trilogy and Rev Rad, there are lyrics that plenty of fans have agreed are cringeworthy or word salad. I think the comparison has more to do with the quality of the lyrics and less to do with the instrumentals. 

Sorry, but I have to completely disagree. There are many words I could use to describe Walking Contradiction, or any song on Insomniac, and "mediocre" is definitely not one of them!! *broken heart emoji*

That's exactly what I've been trying to say!

[Chin for a Day]

4 minutes ago, MikeDirntConfused said:

That's exactly what I've been trying to say!

But what some of us have been saying is that that is personal opinion.  I don't happen to agree with that, and many others don't.  I seriously don't understand why you feel you need to convince people that you are right.

[stories and songs]

This could go around in circles forever because people aren't going to change their minds about their emotional interpretation of art. I love hearing other people's perspectives because they often shed light on aspects of songs I didn't even notice, which makes it an even better listening experience. But trying to put out a blanket statement that RevRad isn't as good as AI just isn't a thing. That's completely subjective.

I have my own personal reasons why I like RevRad more than American Idiot, and that's not something that can be taken away just because others don't like some of the lyrics or think the album wasn't a good enough effort from the band. I totally understand the points made about why a lot of people feel differently about RevRad and I totally respect that, but trying to mold an opinion into something objective doesn't work. 

[MikeDirntConfused]

4 minutes ago, Scattered Wreck said:

But what some of us have been saying is that that is personal opinion.  I don't happen to agree with that, and many others don't.  I seriously don't understand why you feel you need to convince people that you are right.

This forum is for a discussion, so why can't I state my opinions. If I talk about how great GD is, everyone jumps on the bandwagon. If I say anything remotely negative, I have an army of people who refuse to accept other views.

Listen, a forum is to discuss different point of view - I'm not saying one opinion is right and the others are wrong. I'm just stating what I believe, and you, and everyone else can do the same - that's what makes them "discussions", if you didn't know. If you have so much of a problem with this, then just get out of the thread.

[Chin for a Day]

8 minutes ago, MikeDirntConfused said:

This forum is for a discussion, so why can't I state my opinions. If I talk about how great GD is, everyone jumps on the bandwagon. If I say anything remotely negative, I have an army of people who refuse to accept other views.

Listen, a forum is to discuss different point of view - I'm not saying one opinion is right and the others are wrong. I'm just stating what I believe, and you, and everyone else can do the same - that's what makes them "discussions", if you didn't know. If you have so much of a problem with this, then just get out of the thread.

I can say the same to you.  Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else.  From the way you post, and the title of the thread, it comes across as you are trying to state that you are right and everyone that disagrees is wrong.  

You don't have to be so nasty and I ahve every right to be in any thread I want.  

[MikeDirntConfused]

1 minute ago, Scattered Wreck said:

I can say the same to you.  Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else.  From the way you post, and the title of the thread, it comes across as you are trying to state that you are right and everyone that disagrees is wrong.  

You don't have to be so nasty and I ahve every right to be in any thread I want.  

I never implied that - that's your assumption. If you can stay, then I can certainly stay.

[Chin for a Day]

1 minute ago, MikeDirntConfused said:

I never implied that - that's your assumption. If you can stay, then I can certainly stay.

I didn't said you had to leave, you told me too.

 

[MikeDirntConfused]

4 minutes ago, Scattered Wreck said:

I didn't said you had to leave, you told me too.

 

Listen, I don't want to start an argument, especially over a band.  Let's forget this. GD is good and all, but in the broad spec of things they just make music we like.

[Haushinka!]

This is a substantial discussion of opinions. I definitely don't think people expressing criticisms of the band are trying to "convince" or persuade others that they're right. 

[UNICORN VOMIT]

eeww just had a vision of the jacuzzi @crock6000 

[tresexy101]

Sometimes I feel like a Harp somewhere over a traffic jam.   Ya'll can interpret the way you want but, Haushinka, because you responded with such a long post about a lyric or song, tells me you have put a lot of thought into the song.  William Joseph did his job.  It's easier to be direct and pick boogers than it is to pick a brain.  

[Haushinka!]

2 hours ago, tresexy101 said:

Sometimes I feel like a Harp somewhere over a traffic jam.   Ya'll can interpret the way you want but, Haushinka, because you responded with such a long post about a lyric or song, tells me you have put a lot of thought into the song.  William Joseph did his job.  It's easier to be direct and pick boogers than it is to pick a brain.  

Haha that first line is hilarious! & honestly, it didn't require me much thought. I was just describing how I feel about @crock6000's essay of a post. He clearly put in way more thought than me! I gotta give credit where credit is due. 

 

[tresexy101]

1 hour ago, Haushinka! said:

Haha that first line is hilarious! & honestly, it didn't require me much thought. I was just describing how I feel about @crock6000's essay of a post. He clearly put in way more thought than me! I gotta give credit where credit is due. 

 

I love you in a step sibling way (maybe we can still do it).  I'm sorry my post didn't require you to think so much but I still nailed it.  And I'm on xanax and beer!  You're very pretty, by the way.             To be on topic, though,  as I typed before, GD already made American Idiot.  Therefore, they cannot make it again.  In a parallel universe they have made it again, and when time travel has been perfected, than sure, AI will be made again.  

[Stan Dellone]

21 hours ago, Tinkle said:

Wow eagerly await @crock6000 s reply😐

If @crock6000 is ditching us to hang with industry insiders in hot tubs, it probably won’t happen, but I tried my best to complete my thoughts anyway, just in case. 

 

Weirdly, the original question of this thread brought the issue of lyrics into sharper focus for me. Can Green Day make another American Idiot? The general consensus seems to be no, and that there’s really no reason to expect one or for the band to try. And I don’t think they’re trying to, but the song switch on their music machine seems like it's still stuck on American Idiot mode, whether they like it or not. To me, it seems like Billie is writing like his songs are nestled in an explanatory narrative that just isn’t there. 

If you look back, American Idiot (as far as I can tell) is the first album to contain songs that would make little or no sense if taken out of the context of the album, St. Jimmy being the prime example. Within the context of the album and the story, it’s a great song. It can get away with throwing out incomplete thoughts and catch phrases because it’s setting up a characters and ideas that we’ll be seeing later. It’s serving a purpose in a larger story. Grand sweeping statements lacking in subtlety or nuance, but foundational to the narrative. Letterbomb and Holiday as well. Slogans and talking points, but in context and full knowledge of what came before, they’re awesome. What manifests as a problem on later albums is a key ingredient to this albums success. 

21st Century Breakdown used this same kind of broad stroke lyricism to an even greater degree, and stumbled slightly (in my opinion) because it expanded the writing style while reeling in the force of the narrative. I’ve always felt like if AI was a novel, 21CB was a photoessay. Snapshots of a world in chaos and a lost sense of belonging. Almost as if it was a polaroid taken of JoS and Whatsername somewhere between Extraordinary Girl and Letterbomb, after the rise but before the fall. Apart from the obvious passage of time in Murder City (“I’m wide awake after the riots…”), there isn’t a sense of momentum to be found on the album. Characters, sure, but no interaction. Still, it worked, because it was a complete picture at least, if not one that moved and breathed like American Idiot. 

Then the Trilogy came along and took the idea of catch phrases and sloganeering and bullet points to an unfathomable level. There was a vain attempt to extract a meager meaning from the mess (Uno as pre-party, Dos as the party, and Tre as the aftermath). But I don’t think anyone believes that was the point of the project. They called it a back to basics approach. Just write and record. Make it fun again. But they ran into a the same problem as Marty McFly in Back to the Future 2. Their history and identity was altered by AI and 21CB to such an extent that, when they went back, it was to an alternate timeline where songs as individual pieces were all about making general impressions and drawing dots that would be connected by the listener via the connective tissue of the narrative later. But there was no narrative. The songs all stood on their own and most collapsed under their own (lack of) weight. 

And that’s kind of where they were left to start Revolution Radio. That exaggerated American Idiot style of writing, the loose-to-nonexistent narrative thrust of 21CB, and an unhealthy smattering of the “eh, who cares” vibe of the Trilogy. It’s certainly more focused than the Trilogy, but more focused than the Trilogy is hardly 20/20. RevRad sounds desperately like it’s at least trying to say something, but just can’t find the words. Broad statements and massive themes that go largely unexplored, like pamphlets in a hotel lobby that do nothing but hint at the local attractions. Lines that amount to little more than surface level metaphor and similes are coupled with lines that could charitably be called cryptic but that hit the ear like eyebrow-raising nonsense. And then, like the baffling attempt to repeat Abbey Road that shows up at the end of Band on the Run, you have a reprise of Somewhere Now at the end of Forever Now, as if there really WAS a story the whole time. Had there been a story, and had the cellos, concrete kisses, santa clauses, debutants in surgery, and drones way up in the sky been related to something more, maybe it would make more sense. That’s not to say that an album needs a story to be great, or even that Green Day specifically needs one. Lord knows they proved 6+ times that they don’t.

In the end, I guess it’s like a horoscope. If you find meaning in it, then it means something. To you. If you don’t find meaning in it, then it means nothing. To you. I just miss the days when Green Day didn’t seem to be ambiguous by design. 

Now, if they could just go back to 1955 and get the Sports Almanac from Biff… then everything would be fine.

 

4 hours ago, crock6000 said:

... Billie Joe doesn't even come close to the interpretations and brain power needed to decipher some of the stuff from actual poetry.

Strangely, that's the most critical thing I've seen anyone say in this entire thread, and I don't think I can agree with it. You win.

[Stan Dellone]

23 minutes ago, crock6000 said:

So as I sit here in my hotel room, trying to fall asleep and reading this stuff, and trying to be respectful in my responses, I feel frustration. 

Dude... what happened? You went from being open to having a conversation about lyrics to nothing but vitriol and wild accusations. I seriously (seriously, no joke or condescension intended) hope this vacation you're on helps you mellow out. I mean, seriously... What you just said to me and to @Haushinka! a while ago was bafflingly blunt and rude. You've single handedly changed the tenor of the conversation, and quite possibly killed it. Again, you win. 

For the record, Nimrod is my favorite Green Day album. And I've been a fan since then. Not that it matters. Fuck you and your longevity pass and people like you who think that makes you a "better fan". Also, , no, I don't think that Billie Joe is the most "encrypted" poet (for someone who has been relentlessly ripping apart people's word choice, maybe you should give your shit a second look), but I do think that questioning his brain power (direct quote from you) is a little overboard. 

But you're right, that poem you just posted totally changed my life, dude. Mind altering shit, dude. Fuck Green Day, dude. 

[Stan Dellone]

7 minutes ago, crock6000 said:

When did I question his brain power? Get some reading comprehension brother.

 

6 hours ago, crock6000 said:

The only reading I do that is fiction is poetry and Billie Joe doesn't even come close to the interpretations and brain power needed to decipher some of the stuff from actual poetry.

 

15 minutes ago, Stan Dellone said:

Again, you win. 

 

[Stan Dellone]

16 minutes ago, crock6000 said:

I really hate to re open the can but I must know what this even means. I have no idea.

I was responding to something specific you wrote and then you just shot out this response to it which means literally nothing to me. 

All I got out of it was an extreme over use of the word "dude". Literally every sentence in this paragraph has a "dude" in it. 

 

It's up for interpretation. Repetition is a pretty common poetic device, but it can be a little bewildering to the uninitiated. 

[TheGrouch33]

3 hours ago, crock6000 said:

For someone that doesn't like the lyrics or the music, you sure like to talk about it.

Also, I find it ironic that someone would keep using the same adjective in 20 forms "cringy", or "cringe worthy" over and over to lambast someone else's writing. 

As has been said over and over, including by yourself, it's okay to like or not like whatever you want but I would never personally go around shutting on the lyrics and "production" of a masterpiece album.

If I didn't like something, I would just not say anything at all about it ever so I am not sure where to go with your response anymore.

Okay, I get it. We are on polar opposites of our thoughts on the musicality and the lyrics on this album. I don't care to try and convince you other than to show with my thoughts why I believe your thoughts are erroneous to me. 

Its fine you don't agree but I believe the conversation reached a natural conclusion about 4 pages ago.

Also, as evidenced by the crowds, shows, sales and responses, most Green Day fans (I said most) don't really agree with you.

And the final point, the show's (especially the Pilladium) have been sick.

Its quite possible that the Pilladium show is my new favorite. I say that often after a show but I think this one really might have been up there in the top 2 or 3 and possibly ever. Going to need to let it digest more to be sure of that one. 

But when I listen to the album, I anticipate the show, not what he meant about the celo line which may possibly be a bad lyric or possibly means something that you can't break down. I mean do you consider that as a possibility?

I mean the "I wanr to hold you like a gun and shoot the moon into the sun" that someone posted as a bad lyrical phrase and "word salad" and "cringe worthy", I gave a inmediate try and what that could mean and got no real response about it and the interpretation was pretty good.

At the end of the day, I absolutely enjoy discussing and ever debating the concepts and thoughts of the lyrics but for the life of me, I can't see the reason, desire or use of trying to convince people that enjoy something that they shouldn't. Fuck, even if they are wrong.

My wife listens to and watches absolute crap. While I always laugh at it, I always tell her and I mean, "fuck, I wish I liked all that shit" as it would be more things for me to enjoy, but I don't, and yeah I try and get her to at least listen to or watch the same things I enjoy but I am certainly not going to try and convince her to not like what she likes. Where is the use in that?

You seem hell bent on convincing everyone that the engineering on this album is bad, that the lyrics are flat and now the "weak production...feels flat....but that's another discussion".

It amazes me that everyone here is a fucking promoter, producer, engineer, lyricist and tour manager wrapped into one.

The production on the album is not bad AT ALL. The lyrics are fucking phenomenal. The songs are poinent and purposeful. The melodies are gorgeous. And they FUCKING rock!!!!!

Yeah. Every season this is about the time where I have to step away from here.

My essay consisted of me reading some stuff and then copy and pasting a few tracks lyrics and breaking them down phrase by phrase to show that these are not empty lyrics unless you have an empty life.

I did it with respect and at that point of the thread it was enjoyable. This has turned into a pissing contest about who is right or wrong about fucking Green Day lyrics and the piss is getting on my feet now.

yeah maybe i should just use another adjective and youre right im spending too much time talking about an album that i feel indifferent to and kind of dislike! Not trying to convince anyone I just went on and on because im really disappointed with rev rad thats it! im a big fan and I think the album compared to other Green Day albums is bad. Seriously? the production rocks? the guitars are so low in some songs thats why my ears were hurting i had to put the volume way up, its kind of strange. Ive told you a few times, and you have agreed, that everyone has their on personal taste, so telling me in this post that everything is phenomenal is not going to change my mind either. Oh and i dont think ive come across as  promoter, producer etc etc its just our fucking opinion just like a food critic might not know how to cook but they can apreciate a meal and find faults.

By the way I liked talking about the album with you crock hahahah just to end on a happier note^^

[Slash]

I want another Dookie. 

[Stan Dellone]

4 hours ago, crock6000 said:

I enjoyed talking about it with you too and fair enough by stating your reason as disappointment. I can hear that.

I was for sure getting frustrated earlier and it showed in my posts and @Stan Dellone thought telling me to fuck off was the way to deal.

Hey Stan, check out this dude's post and take a lesson.

Alright. I'll take a look-see and see what lesson I can glean.

Hmmm.... interesting. I choose to interpret this as you saying that you aren't happy with the way I reacted to your being an asshole yesterday, and that you would prefer to be handled with kid gloves and not be made to feel the sting of any consequence from your actions, even if that sting is something as small and ultimately inconsequential as being told to fuck off, because it really makes you feel bad when someone points out that you crossed a pretty obvious line of civil discourse, especially if while doing so they aren't bowing and scraping to make sure you don't take further offense, because there's one rule for you and another for everyone else.

That's the lesson I took away from it. After you went off the deep end big time, that's really the only way I could take it, don't you think? If there's another interpretation (one where you're a maligned hero, perhaps?), let me know.